staff distance?

• Mar 31, 2020 - 19:29

how can i increase the staff distance, please?
Increasing "staff distance" ()even to 24sp does not seem to do a lot...
Thank you!

MS2.0

Attachment Size
staffdistance.png 40.46 KB
poppenkraam.mscz 23.03 KB

Comments

MuseScore 2.0.2, serious? The last MusaeScore 2 was 2.3.2 and with MuseScore 3 we're at 3.4.2 meanwhile!

Anyway, staff distance indeed won't help here, as your system consists of just one staff. So you need to change min. (and max. system distance

In reply to by aeLiXihr

Update surely does work. Maybe KXstudio doesn't provide newer version )Debian and Ubuntu does, And KX Studio can use those), but there always are AppImages on musescore.org for that too.

Your image does not show what max. system distance is set to. Change that too. ISTR a bug on older version where you could have min. bigger than max. with very strange effects. 2.3.2 doesn't allow that anymore though, that bug got fixed.

In reply to by Jojo-Schmitz

...okay, i am ready to try again.
Is this okay? https://www.how2shout.com/how-to/how-to-downlaod-and-install-musescore-…

In the terminal i get "DO NOT USE THESE PPAs on Debian, only on Ubuntu!" (please see below)
"These packages are NOT suitable for âKDE neonâ!"

I am on KXstudio, i think it is Ubuntu but it may be Debian instead, i am not sure...
I have KDE desktop, but i do not know what "neonâ!" would be...

I am affraid to screw up, since MS2 works fine most of the time, but i have a bit of a transposing issue with TAB and hope it to be fixed after upgrading.
Thank you very much!
Best

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In reply to by Jojo-Schmitz

thank you!
I downloaded this one https://musescore.org/en/download/musescore-x86_64.AppImage
It is on my desktop now but i am not sure what to do with it. Apparently there is no need to install, only make executeable? Like this? Should i "tell" my computer in which directory it is?

$ chmod a+x musescore-x86_64.AppImage
$ ./musescore-x86_64.AppImage

https://appimage.org
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppImage

In reply to by Jojo-Schmitz

thank you.

"You will need to change directory (cd) to wherever the AppImage is saved your system, for example:
cd ~/Desktop
./MuseScore.AppImage [option...]
Or give the path to the AppImage:
~/desktop/MuseScore
.AppImage [option...]" (desktop lower case?)

-The AppImage is saved on the desktop so i did this:

cd ~/Desktop
./MuseScore-3.4.2-x86_64.AppImage

~/Desktop$ ./MuseScore-3.4.2-x86_64.AppImage
bash: ./MuseScore-3.4.2-x86_64.AppImage: Permission denied


Should i:
sudo ~/desktop/MuseScore-3.4.2-x86_64.AppImage
sudo ~/Desktop/MuseScore-3.4.2-x86_64.AppImage

? Thanks!

In reply to by Shoichi

okay, thank you very much. That worked and i have installed it.

But MS3 totally ruins the lay out AND the transposing issue persists.
Please refer to the attached files.

toonl1-2.png is the 1st page from a scale method book i am making made in MS2
toonl1-3.png is the same page as opened in MS3
toonl3-2.png is the 3rd page in MS2
toonl3-3.png is that same 3rd page as opened in MS3

Alas, this does not give me a very warm feeling.

Now for the E mayor scale i copied the G scale into an empty bar (toonlE0.png) and [arrow down] 3 times (toonlE1.png, toonlE2.png, toonlE3.png)
As you see pressing down works perfectly 2 times but the 3rd time only the fist 2 TABnotes go down and the rest stays the same...

Attachment Size
toonl1-2.png 37.6 KB
toonl1-3.png 49.3 KB
toonl3-2.png 58.88 KB
toonl3-3.png 72.32 KB
toonlE0.png 95.4 KB
toonlE1.png 87.89 KB
toonlE2.png 90.72 KB
toonlE3.png 86.82 KB

In reply to by Jojo-Schmitz

"MuseScore 3 does not totally ruin the layout" well, actually it does; it does not even keep the title font(Eadui) intact.
But i guess you refer to the fingerings? could you suggest how to achieve this layout without "dirty layout tricks and tweaks", please?
I did not realize they were dirty tricks.
Thank you!

In reply to by aeLiXihr

You have used fingering elements in ways that don't seem to relate to how they were intended to be used (one fingering per note). MuseScore 2 was pretty dumb about fingering and laid them out in ways that often required lots of manual adjustment even when used correctly; this is fixed in MuseScore 3 so fingering doesn't need much if any adjustment when used normally. But you have some very strange things going on here with a whole stack of fingering elements all entered as one. Not sure what the point of that was supposed to be, but anyhow, it only worked in MuseScore 2 because it was, as I said, pretty dumb about fingering and didn't know how it is supposed to be laid, so if you entered "nonsense" fingering, it wasn;t any more of a problem than standard fingering.

With MuseScore 3, fingering is optimized to work extremely well when used in standard ways. If you wish to create non-standard layouts like yours, there are better ways to do this, such as using staff text flipped below the staff with "X", which will then lay out in neat rows without resorting to further manual adjustments. Or even enter them as lyrics, that would have been possible in MuseScore 2 as well and would also have saved all the trouble of the extensive manual adjustment you ended up needing.

Basically, any time you end up resorting to manual adjustments just to get things to line up the way you want, chances are there is a better way to do it where that won't be necessary and it will continue to work even as the layout changes instead of being "fragile" like this example.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Sorry i do not see what you refer to "whole stack of fingering elements all entered as one" you mean the right hand fingerings? it is just 8 different RH fingerings and they look perfectly fine on toonl1-2.png. It is an exercise book fior guitar. Even Segovia published scale exercises like that. I mean if Segovia is not a standard, who is?
(edit; i tried to upload two snippets from different guitar books, but apparently one is too big)

There are no "nonsense" fingerings in this book. So enlighten me, please on a better way to create these fingerings as in the the book snippets (below)
I added TAB staffs for students who do not read easy in high positions.

Also it would be cool to find out how to transpose the tab in the E mayor exemple the final half step down.

I remember having a discussion with you about chord notation as well. One cannot know everything, apparently the world of music notation is bigger than the standard as by Marc Sabatella.

Attachment Size
scales-Segovia-C1.png 2.04 MB

In reply to by aeLiXihr

here it is.
From a scale book by Dick Visser. It is the same fingering as G mayor in my book but i added TABs.
There are 4 LH fingerings. with srting switches in different places.

So "prety please, with sugar on top" what is the "standard" way in MS to achieve this layout.
Thank you!

Attachment Size
forMarc.png 1.1 MB

In reply to by aeLiXihr

Yes, that is what I mean. For a special purpose like an exercise book I can imagine why such a thing might exist, but then, these are no longer standard fingering marks intended to be laid out according to the usual rules for how fingering are laid out. Instead, you want a very special grid-like layout that normal fingerings would never obey. So that is why I said it would have b been much easier in the first place to use a text type that is actually designed to lay out in that way, rather than using manual adjustments to force a different type of text to lay out the way you want. Especially in the case of fingering, because the default layout of fingering in MsueScore was so poor. It means as soon as we fixed the problems with default fingering layout, and manual adjustments that dependend on that poor original layout in order for the manual adjustments to look right will now fail. This is exactly the sort of problem that would have been solved using staff text, and it would have been easier as well to begin with.

Had you done it that way to begin with in MuseScore 2, you would have saved yourself probably hours of effort, and your layout would not have been so "fragile". So the improvements in the fingering layout in MuseScore 3 would have merely improved your score.

In reply to by aeLiXihr

Define "wrong" in both the places you used it here. As I said, the defaults in MsueScore 2 were very bad in many cases, so not surprisingly many people used manual adjustments applied to bad defaults to try to get something reason. With MsueScore 3, the defaults are much better, so those manual adjustments now end up being counterproductive. That is why MuseScore 3 offers to just reset your manual adjustments when you load a MuseScore 2 file - in most cases your score will suddenly look better than ever. In some cases it is better to keep your old manual adjustments if they were done for other purposes than to workaround poor MuseScore 2 defaults, but then you can simply reset the things that don't need the manual adjustments any more.

So with respect to LH guitar fingering, the standard position is immediately to the left of the notehead. It seems you worked hard to place them above the staff instead, not sure why. I guess because it MuseScore's default position was bad enough that it was easier to do this than fix it for real? Anyhow, in MuseScore 3, simply selecting them all (right-click one, Select / More / Same subtype) would put them where they belong - to the left of the noteheads. Or, if you prefer them above the staff, you could simply change them all to the standard piano Fingering text style. Either way, all that manual adjustment is completely unnecessary and counterproductive here.

In reply to by aeLiXihr

For the lines, you if you mean the imitation fretboard diagrams you tried to draw, this was fragile to begin with, as it depended entirely on the exact space between notes, which is never guaranteed not to change, and in fact changes within MuseScore 2 according to a hundred different variables as well.

With MuseScore 3, it noticed the collisions you created here, and since normally that is a bad thing, it tried to correct it for you (something MsueScore 2 was never smart enough to know how to do, so one constantly needed manual adjustments just to avoid collisions). It's only because you were doing something very tricky here - trying to "fake" a fretboard diagram using lines never designed for that purpose - that you actually wanted the collisions. But no matter, it's simple enough to tell MuseScore to go ahead and allow them, Right-click one, Select / All Similar Elements, press "=" to disable autoplace for those lines. Do the same for the string number elements, but these were placed even more awkwardly using manual adjustment based on poor defaults. It's clever and all, but well outside the realm of what line or string number elements were designed for. So the defaults are much better now for their normal intended use, but way outside-the-box hacks like these will require some work to fix up, because they everything about them was based on applying manual adjustments on top of the flawed default layout of MuseScore 2.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Hai and thank you very much for the reply!
It is funny how you advise to use staff text for non intended purposes(fingering). In the past you eagerly argued i was not allowed to use staff text for chords that MS would not cater for :)

"LH guitar fingering, the standard position is immediately to the left of the notehead" Who told you that, please?
As you can see in the snippets i posted, both Segovia and Visser print the LHfingerings above the notes outside the staff. I, as well, do so for readability and sustained what Segovia ao. did and do...

You realy need to quit making up your own "Marc Sabatella Standards" and imposing them on other people. It makes no sense at all.

By "lines" i mean the lines connecting the string symbols like in the snippet from the Dick Visser book(please see above), There are no fretboard diagrams in this book.
Of course i do agree i had to make some "hacks" to put multiple sting symbols on one and the same note but it would be cool if the lines stayed in place migrating to a newer version.

Please, do not get me wrong i love Musescore but if it only caters for "made up standards" making the leap from 2 to 3 makes me think twice...

Any ideas on why the title font is not loaded correctly? and also how to transpose the tab in the E mayor exemple the final half step down.

I will try these workarounds:
"MuseScore 3 offers to just reset your manual adjustments when you load a MuseScore 2 file"
"Right-click one, Select / All Similar Elements, press "=" to disable autoplace for those lines. Do the same for the string number elements"

Thanks again! best, onno

In reply to by aeLiXihr

You're allowed to do whatever you want. We're just trying to advise you on what actually works best - what produces the expected result with the least effort and has the best chance of surviving future changes to layout code, have the best chance of being understandable to blind users, best chance of export to MusicXML properly, best chance of behaving correcting if the score is transposed, etc.

So I am not making up standards, I'm simply trying to explain how the use the program most effectively.

For guitar fingering position, the standards are published in any number of sources, including the definitive reference Behind Bars, by Elaine Gould. Also any number of published guitar scores. It doesn't mean there aren't special cases where one might choose to deviate from this for specific reasons, and standards change over the centuries, so looking at older editions will often show different results for sure.

But that's fine, the point isn't that you aren't "allowed" to place fingerings above the staff. The point is that if you want that result, it's far easier and far safer to accomplish this result by using the standard piano fingering element, not by applying manual adjustments. Again, I'm not telling you how you should make your score look, I'm just trying to explain the most effective way of actually doing it. So you save time when initially creating the score and save frustration when further improvements to MuseScore's default layout come along.

I realize you don't have fretboard diagrams, I said "imitation" - the horizontal lines you have appear to be trying to show a fretboard laid out horizontally. Maybe I'm wrong about their intended purpose. Understanding more about what they are trying to show would help me advise you better on the best way to achieve the result.

I don't have the title font you refer to so I can't test that. I do know that MuseScore 2 had some serious limitations in how it represented text styles; this is vastly improved in MuseScore 3 but it does mean that there are a very small handful of text types like Title that are occasionally not handled correctly on read.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Interesting; i will check if i find this book in the library: Behind Bars, by Elaine Gould. A scan through my guitar scores so far does not back up this "standard", actually i find some with the fingering left to the note but most are outside the staff, some have RH above and LH under.

What is the difference between the piano an the RH/LH guitar fingering element, please? I fooled around with the Staff space ofset to have the spacing more or less and drag with the mouse.
(StaffSpaceOffset.png)

The horizontal lines are to follow to see where to change to the next string, like reading aid.
As you suggested t tried this "Right-click one, Select / All Similar Elements, press "=" to disable autoplace for those lines"
It works a bit; the vertical spacing is restored. But they are all (~one note) too far to the left. I tried changing "offset" in inspector but than they all merge...
(lines1.png lines 2.png)

"Do the same for the string number elements"
This worked well after selecting "same subtype"
(lines3.png)
I would be perfect if i could move all lines a bit to the right without changing vertical placement...

The title font you could find here; https://fontlibrary.org/en/font/eadui
It is a libre font as far as i know (Sil open font licence)

Thank again, and enjoy your weekend!

Attachment Size
staffspaceoffset.png 79.21 KB
lines1.png 105.18 KB
lines2.png 104.18 KB
lines3.png 111.8 KB

In reply to by aeLiXihr

"Behind Bars" is a pretty definitive reference, any reasonable well-stocked university music library should have it. It's not the sort of thing the average public library might have, though.

The only difference between the various fingerings types is how they are positioned. They behave exactly the same otherwise. So, simply choose the one that gives you the layout you want. If you prefer piano-style layout for your LH guitar fingering, just use the basic fingering element, which really isn't specific to piano. The key difference is, the builtin LH guitar style is relative to the note, whereas the basic fingering is relative to the chord. So if you want them to all align above or below the staff, definitely do not use the LH style, because the default will be different vertical position for different notes, and you'll waste time and risk future problems doing unnecessary manual adjustments. Choose the right tool for the job and you make life easier today and in the future.

For the lines, with MuseScore 3, you wouldn't even need to perform vertical adjust on all those lines - automatic placement would handle all of that for you, well, automatically. So for future scores, you can save yourself a ton of work. For existing ones, unfortunately, as mentioned, you existing manual adjustments are all "fragile" and depend too much on the exact amount of space between notes. Sneeze too hard and the layout is messed up.

To move all lines to the right, just select them all and make the adjustment in the Inspector.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

thank you! yes, i will check for "Behind Bars" in the Amsterdam conservatoire library, once i get there again, has been a long time :)

"To move all lines to the right, just select them all and make the adjustment in the Inspector."
well, I tried that changing "offset" in the inspector but that does not seem to work as they all merge...
(please refer to: lines1.png lines 2.png)

"LH guitar style is relative to the note, whereas the basic fingering is relative to the chord"
Do tou mean the left/centre/right alignment? or something else? format>style>text style
That looks interesting i never did anything with that.
(align.png)

Thanks again, best!

Attachment Size
align.png 3.98 KB

In reply to by aeLiXihr

For fingering, I mean the base point to which the alignment and offset apply is different for piano vs guitar fingering.

0 offset for piano fingering is normally directly above the staff, and is adjusted automatically so multiple fingerings on the same chord stack directly above each other. In other words, by default it does exactly what piano fingering normally does, so when used in the usual way, no manual adjustments are ever required. At least this is true for MuseScore 3 (MuseScore was a hopeless mess in this department and always required extensive manual adjustment to get this basic result.

For guitar LH fingering, 0 offset is directly to the left of the notehead for sing,e-voice music, offset as per the usual convention for multi-voice music. In other words, again, with no manual adjustments whatsoever, you get exactly this standard result. Or, if you prefer the standard piano layout even for guitar fingering (sounds like you do), simply apply the piano fingering.

The point is, if you apply the correct element for the layout you want, manual adjustments are almost never needed to get the expected result. At least, in MuseScore 3; as mentioned, MuseScore 2 was extremely primitive in comparison and always required extensive adjustments to get anything remotely usable.

As for lines in other to assist further, we'd need not picture but a score, and good description of the result you are trying to achieve, and the precise steps tried in an attempt to get that result. Then we can understand what it is you might be misunderstanding about the process and guide you better.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

...so, if i understand you correctly there is no way to make LHguitarfingering position outside the staff above the note? (so behave like piano fingering)
In that case i will use piano fingering for LH from now on. Could i make RHguitarfingering position outside the staff below the note?

For lines i attach the score(again, updated). The result i would like to achieve is like in MS2.pdf
I selected them all and tried changing "offset" in the inspector but that does not seem to work as all lines than merge... (please refer above to: lines1.png lines 2.png)

Could you please also have a look at the E mayor scale on page 6. I copied the G scale into an empty bar (toonlE0.png) and [arrow down] 3 times (toonlE1.png, toonlE2.png, toonlE3.png)
As you see pressing down works perfectly 2 times but the 3rd time only the fist 2 TABnotes go down and the rest stays the same...

Thank you!

Attachment Size
MS2.pdf 61.7 KB
gammes_toonladders_escalas3.mscz 35.68 KB

In reply to by aeLiXihr

You are correct that the text style LH Guitar Fingering is hard-coded to be positioned next to the notehead itself. So if you wish the position to be relative to the chord itself (outside the staff, not next to the note), then use one of the other text styles.

There is no way to make RH default below, at least not if you want LH to default above - the default is always outside a grand staff, so above the top staff, below the bottom. But it's super easy to flip them all below - right-click one, Select / More / Same subtype, then set below in the Inspector. That wouldn't have been the case in MuseScore 2.

Regarding the lines, the problem is you are still overlying on individual manual adjustments rather than letting MuseScore do the work for you. In particular, you have a whole slew of different manual adjustments on each of those lines, and you have autoplace turned off, all of which makes it very difficult to get things to line up precisely. It was very difficult in MuseScore 2 0 you presumably adjusted each line individually one by one. Well, that would work in MuseScore 3 too. But it would be much better to use the Inspector to position each line more precisely, selecting the ones you want to align vertically and give them the same vertical offset, etc.

Meanwhile, in MuseScore 3.5, you can move them all horizontally in one operation. Select them all and drag one, they all move together. The Inspector won't work here because indeed it applies the same horizontal and vertical offset to all of them, which is why they overlap. Instead, you want to offset the offset.

As for hitting down arrow, once you hit fret 0 there is nowhere else to go.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Thank you for the comment!
... i will use piano style for LH Guitar Fingering from now on. I have selected "same subtype" and set them all to "fingering" that worked prety well :D
(for RH) I do not understand this: "the default is always outside a grand staff, so above the top staff, below the bottom"
So i should add all RH fingerings i need, and than flip them all at once with the inspector?

For the E-mayor scale; the lowest string on guitar is "E" and as you see theere is an F scale now. So hitting down arrow, the entire scale should go down to E. But only the first two notes go down, the rest wil not move...

Yes in MuseScore 2 0 i adjusted each line one by one. It was a lot of work but it is the result that counts.
How can i get MuseScore 3.5, does that work with Applipmage too?

I guess my best bet for the moment is leaving the scales i have finished in MS2 and make the rest in MS3. The only drawback is that i have two files than. I can live with that :)

Is there a way to see a undo/redo list with the actions?

Thanks again!

In reply to by Jojo-Schmitz

okay thank you!
I downloaded MuseScore-3.5.0-x86_64.AppImage
from here http://ftp.osuosl.org/pub/musescore-nightlies/linux/x86_64/ to my Desktop
and ticked "is executeable"

~/Desktop$ ./MuseScore-3.5.0-x86_64.AppImage
/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libjack.so.0
/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libnss3.so
/tmp/.mount_MuseSczQ8SQn/bin/mscore-portable: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgpg-error.so.0: no version information available (required by /tmp/.mount_MuseSczQ8SQn/bin/../lib/libgcrypt.so.20)
/tmp/.mount_MuseSczQ8SQn/bin/mscore-portable: symbol lookup error: /tmp/.mount_MuseSczQ8SQn/plugins/platforms/../../lib/libQt5XcbQpa.so.5: undefined symbol: FT_Get_Font_Format

In reply to by aeLiXihr

By "grand staff", I mean an instrument with two staves, like RH/LH for piano, or standard and tab for guitar. The standard in these cases is to place fingerings above the top staff, below the bottom. Otherwise, if fingerings were placed between the staves, it could get confusing as to which staff was meant.

Anyhow, yes, if you want RH fingerings below the staff to maintain compatibility with these exercise books, select them all then flip them. I guess the main reason they chose to deviate from the normal standard was because they had multiple lines of fingerings, so it made more sense to place these below, more like lyrics. Which, BTW, could actually be a reasonable way to achieve this result as well.

I'm still not totally sure what you mean about the unrelated issue with up & down arrows, best to start a new thread with simple score demonstrating that problem.

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