Duplets in 9/8
Mu4.2 chromebook/linux mouse imput i5 8 gig
Duples do not work in 9/8 time signature. Trying to do whole rest. End up with two 1/8 th rests.
Not sure but any compound time sign might be the same with duples. Triplets seemed to work correctly, but did not check all possibilities.
Any thoughts for dividing 9 beats in half? :)
Comments
Maybe don’t. Do temporarily 18 beats-style beams, maybe?
In reply to Maybe don’t. Do temporarily… by hamsandwichnow
Sorry. Do not follow your thought at all. I am trying, as I hoped I conveyed, to make a duple of the Whole 9/8 meas. Not sure how 18 beats wiii help to get back to just two. I will give it a try, though. Thanks for the thought.
In reply to Sorry. Do not follow your… by R. L. F.
It will make two 9-beat sections.
In reply to It will make two 9-beat… by hamsandwichnow
Yes, but how does that help to make a two note duple in the measure?
Are these the duplets you seek?
For three sets of duplets of eighth notes:
Insert a dotted quarter note
Add >Tuplets >Other >Ratio 2:3
For one set of duplets of dotted quarter notes:
Select the whole-bar rest
Add >Tuplets >Other >Ratio 2:3
There are many possibilities to explore.
In reply to Are these the duplets you… by underquark
I do not think we are on the same page. The duplets you seem to be mentioning are dotted quarters, if I understand. This is still to small a division. As I hoped I said , I want the duple of the Whole measure. Two halves would be what I assume should show up. Instead MU4.2 was only giving 2 1/8 th rests. That is not dividing a whole 9/8 meas in two parts.
Your second suggestion seems to be in the right direction, I will have to try that. I guess I am not understanding why other 2:3 is necessary when you are choosing duple anyway. And I still do not understand why the program is dividing a whole rest into (2) 1/8 ths? Thanks for the comment. (Can not open your attachment, yet)
In reply to I do not think we are on the… by R. L. F.
You asked "Any thoughts for dividing 9 beats in half? :)" I provided a thought.
Duplets are usually two in the space of three, hence two dotted quarter notes in the space that would usually be occupied by three dotted quarter notes. In what way is that too small a division of a whole measure? Why would writing two half notes make it easier to interpret?
I don't know why my attached file isn't opening for you. My version:
OS: Ubuntu 22.04.3 LTS, Arch.: x86_64, MuseScore version (64-bit): 4.2.0-233521125, revision: eb8d33c
In reply to Duplets are usually two in… by underquark
I am not on my work system, so it will not open. Will try again.
So, I agree that two dotted quarters will be fine, if I could get there. That is my problem. How? I will try your second suggestion. Yet, I still do not understand why clicking the whole rest and selecting duple, does not give the desired result. Why is choosing 2:3 necessary when you have chosen duple?
I usually think of duple as ending with larger notes than what would be half of the measure note(s). That's the only reason I said halves. Either works fine, if I get there. Will let you know. Thanks again
In reply to Duplets are usually two in… by underquark
As an aside, forgot to mention the handbook says to select the note or rest and then control and the number for the division you want. In this case 2. And that does not work in this case. That is why I say this feature does not work in this instance.
In reply to Are these the duplets you… by underquark
Sorry, but the more I stew over this the two dotted quarters are just not correct, even though they fit and may unfortunately be the best result. It is not 2 into 3 I am doing, but two into one.
I have given more thoughts in some of the other responses. It is a conundrum for sure, with not a great choice. But for me, the two dotted quarters are just not satisfactory. I will continue to mull this over and experiment with some of the choices suggested. I just repeat, the program is not giving anything close for this example. And what it does is truly incorrect.
Thanks for the thoughts
Is one of these what your after ?
![duplets.png]( "duplets.png")
In reply to Is one of these what your… by rothers
Surely not, as 9/8 expects 3 dotted 1/4 notes, a duolet must be two such notes, not anything else.
In reply to Surely not, as 9/8 expects 3… by frfancha
so this one?
![tuplet.png]( "tuplet.png")
In reply to so this one? [inline:tuplet… by sammik
Yes, that would suffice. So, how did you get that? But if you look at Rothers suggestion, that double halves was really what I was hoping to get. Thanks for the comment
In reply to so this one? [inline:tuplet… by sammik
@sammik yes that is the correct duolet for a whole 9/8 measure, thanks.
In reply to Surely not, as 9/8 expects 3… by frfancha
I think he was saying if the measure were divided normally, it would be 3 dotted quarters.
In reply to Is one of these what your… by rothers
Yes. In my mind your third option is what I was hoping to see. So....how did you get it to happen?
In reply to Yes. In my mind your third… by R. L. F.
Add the 2 manually (I used fingering).
I've not found a way to add the bracket & number automatically.
In reply to Select full bar rest, Add… by rothers
A very complicated process for what should be a simple two part process. It does(sort of) accomplish what I want. Though, as you say does not give the exact necessary result. I shall give it a try. Thanks
In reply to Select full bar rest, Add… by rothers
@rothers: these two 1/2 notes as duolet in 9/8 don't make any sense to me from what I remember from my music lessons.
2 should indicates 2 in the place normally taken by 3, and in 9/8, three 1/2 notes are not taking the "normal" places.
Three dotted 1/4 notes do.
So you need a duolet of dotted 1/4 notes.
Or you're experimenting with notation ?
Or I don't remember my music lessons correctly, happy to be corrected then.
In reply to @rothers: these two 1/2… by frfancha
I am sure you are correct, mostly. But, it is 'squeezing' two notes/rests into what was one note/rest. The two halves are not exactly right either, but better than two half note + dotted 1/8 th combination.(or dotted quarters)
Just as with a triplet or quintuplet, you are squeezing more into one. For a quarter 3 sixteenth would also fit, yet you are not squeezing a larger value into the space. We therefore use quarters. Or 5 thirty seconds would work, but we use 16 ths instead
My 9/8 marking is presenting a problem. We are asking the performer to fit the larger number of beats into a smaller space. Triplet, 3 where two is normal, quintuplet, 5 where four is normal. And for my duple it is really 2 where one is normal. It is the whole rest I am dividing into two beats. Not 3 notes/rests into 2.(beats is poor word choice in this instance, but I hope you get the idea)
I just know the program is not giving a correct result for duple in this case. Thanks for responding
In reply to I am sure you are correct,… by R. L. F.
Heu .. no.
A duolet is to squeeze less notes not more.
And to be clear that doesn't impact in any way the duration of the 9/8 measure.
Whatever note you choose to put in there splitting the 9/8 measure in 2 will have the same real duration.
So I don't get why you much want to use the incorrect 1/2 notes instead of the correct dotted 1/4
In reply to Heu .. no. A duolet is to… by frfancha
Guess we will have to agree to disagree.
I would only ask, when the rest of the tuplets are squeezing more notes into the beat, why is a duple different? Afraid I do not think so. Guess we will just disagree on this part! Thanks for the thoughts
In reply to Guess we will have to agree… by R. L. F.
@r.l.f
You wrote:
"Guess we will have to agree to disagree.
I would only ask, when the rest of the tuplets are squeezing more notes into the beat, why is a duple different? Afraid I do not think so. Guess we will just disagree on this part! Thanks for the thoughts"
I have now checked in music reference books to make sure my memory doesn't betray me, and it doesn't. What I wrote is exactly how it is. So feel free to disagree of course, but be aware that only you will undertand your notation.
In reply to Select full bar rest, Add… by rothers
The more I think over this, even the two halves are not really enough. You are trying to 'squeeze' more notes into the same space. 8 vs. 9 is not really doing this. It comes close. And trying to use two halves + two dotted 1/8 ths is really ridiculous! I still prefer the halves.
In reply to Yes. In my mind your third… by R. L. F.
In reply to Select measure rest Ctrl + 2… by sammik
Yes! That is what the handbook says. Unfortunately, it gives two 1/8 th rests. Not even close.
In reply to Yes! That is what the… by R. L. F.
Actually it may be as good as you will get. Think about a little differently than you have been. Set a 9/8 score with 2 staves. Add 9 1/8th notes to the upper stave. What is the middle of a 9/8 measure? Note 5. There are are 4 notes on each side. Now in the measure below, duple the rest. add the two 1/8th notes. The second one will sound after beat five.
Next, divide a 9/8 measure in half, you would need not a duple but a half note tied to a 1/16 note. Followed by the same. Then the second note happens after beat 5.
Same either way.
And now my head hurts.
In reply to Actually it may be as good… by bobjp
Try the same thing with 3/8 meas. What is the mid point there. Yet, I think, as what we would normally expect, the dulpe would be two quarters? Making the performer squeeze two slightly larger values in the same beat space. Think of a triplet. One quarter and it is three 1/8 th notes. Slightly larger values squeezed into the same beat. The duple should be working the same. Though, with my 9/8 meas, as you said nothing really works, perfectly. My choice is still the 2 halves. I think the performer would grasp the concept. But the program puts 2 1/8 s. Not exactly obvious. I still prefer something close to slightly larger than half the meas.
And Yes, my head has been hurting for a few days now!! Thanks for the thoughts
In reply to Try the same thing with 3/8… by R. L. F.
No, in 3/8 a duplet is two 1/8 notes. Not because MuseScore does that but because that's just exactly what a duplet means. A duplet is two notes taking the duration normally taken by three of them.
In reply to No, in 3/8 a duplet is two 1… by frfancha
Not neccessarily, you can have a duplet on a whole rest and get 2 half notes.
But I guess that's what you covered by normally ;-)
In reply to Not neccessarily, you can… by Jojo-Schmitz
@Jojo depends time signature.
Are you still speaking of 3/8?
In reply to @Jojo depends time signature… by frfancha
You won't fit a whole rest into 3/8...
In reply to You won't fit a whole rest… by Jojo-Schmitz
Well yes I know, then why are you coming up with this whole rest???
I was answering the specific case of 3/8 mentioned in the post of R.L.F.
In 3/8 a whole measure duplet that's two 1/8 notes (or rests). Nothing else.
In reply to Well yes I know, then why… by frfancha
And, 3/8 or not, this is always true :
A duplet is two notes (or rests) taking the duration normally taken by three of them.
These notes can be sub-divided of course, so taking again the 3/8 case, a duplet can be two 1/8 notes, or a pair of 1/16 notes followed by one 1/8 note, or...
In reply to And, 3/8 or not, this is… by frfancha
A duplet divides any given duration by 2.
It normally is used to place 2 notes in the space of 3, whenever used on a dotted duration, otherwise duplets are not really useful, but still possible.
Similarly useless as a triplet on a dotted dutation
In reply to A duplet divides any given… by Jojo-Schmitz
A duplet is for 2 notes in the space of 3 and nothing else.
Feel free to use a duplet for something else than what it is supposed to be, but musicians will have to guess what you meant and will think your notation is incorrect.
In reply to A duplet is for 2 notes in… by frfancha
A duplet is for 2 notes in the space of 3
Only if applied to a dotted duration (and only then a duplet makes any sense)
In reply to A duplet is for 2 notes in… by Jojo-Schmitz
Yes. But my example is for the whole meas, therefore It was 2 to 1.
My further comment is with bobjp.
In reply to A duplet is for 2 notes in… by frfancha
That is probably true. Though I have been occasionally using a duple in a score for many decades and have not had any confusion. I do know, as a performer, looking at a meas with 2 notes that would note equal the total beats of a meas, my first question would be "do you want some kind of pause between these notes"? That is just me.
For centuries, composers have set the practices that theorists have codified. This seems to have been the other way around. Of The tuples duple is different. Not pushing the boundary of the beat or meas, but shrinking it.
But yes, each to their own way.
In reply to Well yes I know, then why… by frfancha
This is RLF and my original post Was for the whole rest.
In reply to This is RLF and my original… by R. L. F.
Whole rest (4 quarters) or whole measure rest (. duration determined by the duration the measure)? They look alike, visually only differ in whether they are left aligned or centered
In reply to Not neccessarily, you can… by Jojo-Schmitz
If it is a whole rest you do not need a duplet, it is two halves already.
In reply to If it is a whole rest you do… by R. L. F.
Exactly my point.
Using Windows 10 and I see the same problem. This is a bug. It's not supposed to be doing that. It's happening in version 4.2.0 as well as in version 3.6.2.
![duples.png]( "duples.png")
In reply to Using Windows 10 and I see… by FBXOPWKDOIR2
I think you are asking a duple to do something it might not be intended to do.
In reply to I think you are asking a… by bobjp
I am not sure I can totally agree with that. But obviously my 9/8 meas is straining it's abilities!
Thanks
In reply to I am not sure I can totally… by R. L. F.
Indeed. If there shouldn't be duples in 9/8 (which I don't believe) then Musescore should indicate that with an error instead of spazzing out and displaying gobbledegook. That's something for the Programming Boys™ to hash out.
In reply to I think you are asking a… by bobjp
I think Musescore is mishandling the request to duple which leads to strange phenomenon like this. In the 9/8 bar, the duple request should have followed the same procedure as the 6/8 and 12/8 bar, namely to take each dotted quarter (which is three eighths), make a duple out of it, and then enclose the whole thing in a duple bracket. The fact that None of us are sure what is happening means that people are gonna have to get together to decide what is the best practice here. Then the Programming Boys™ can take over and create a subroutine, including the "h" as they're wont to do.
In reply to I think Musescore is… by FBXOPWKDOIR2
There is no doubt at all from a musical point of view.
A duplet in 9/8 is two dotted 1/4 notes or rests.
So MuseScore creating a duplet of two 1/8 rests instead of two dotted 1/4 when pressing CTRL 2 on a 9/8 measure rest is just a plain bug.
As simple as that.
In reply to There is no doubt at all… by frfancha
But regardless of whether the notation should be two dotted quarters or two eights, there's a bigger problem. Both show that two even notes are to be played in an un-even measure. How will a group of musicians agree on when to change to the second note? My guess is they won't. Depending on what the melody is doing, they will make one note a fraction longer. That's not to say they couldn't play exactly two even notes. But they would have to agree on what that means. When do you change? On beat five? Right after beat five? Yes, they will need to feel it. That's what musicians do. I'm just thinking that a duplet in 9/8 might not be all that musical.
In reply to But regardless of whether… by bobjp
Oh Bob please stop.
There is absolutely nothing to agree on.
Just follow exactly what a duplet means.
In reply to Oh Bob please stop. There is… by frfancha
frfancha
Here's the thing. There is what's right. And there is what you have to do in reality. Two dotted quarter notes are what is right. But MU4 doesn't produce that. But it does produce something that is usable. I write for playback. So the fact that MU4 produces two eight rests is totally irrelevant. Mu4 does provide a way to place two evenly spaced notes in a 9/8 measure and play them back. In just a few clicks. Done.
Sibelius can't do that. If you select a 9/8 measure and hit the duplet routine, You get an error. You have to set up the measure with dotted quarter rests or notes, first. Is that the way it should be done? Of course. No argument from me.
MU4 can't produce a duplet from 3 dotted quarter notes. Or from a 9/8 measure rest. But it can produce a playback option. A bug for sure. But MU4 is a world of work-arounds.
In reply to But regardless of whether… by bobjp
Agreed! (My work is only for one player) And Yes the player needs to feel it. And with two notes that are at least very close to the meas length, I think that will come more easily than two notes that are equal only to the first and last beat.
I started this thread to point out that MU4.2 is not doing things correctly no matter what. Not to start a discussion about duples. So , I am through, you all may continue as you wish. Good luck on an answer.
In reply to Agreed! (My work is only for… by R. L. F.
A workaround for the inability of MuseScore to let you introduce a correct duplet in 9/8 would be to split the measure in two equal durations the usual way, without duplet, i.e. with twice a dotted 1/4 note tied to a dotted 1/8.
In reply to Agreed! (My work is only for… by R. L. F.
Rlf
You wrote :
"I think that will come more easily than two notes that are equal only to the first and last beat"
You realize this is exactly what a duplet means right ? That two notes becomes half longer because they are in a duplet ? And it would be weird for musicians to have another kind of duplet, they will struggle to read it and probably correct the score to be able to read it normally ?
In reply to Rlf You wrote : "I think… by frfancha
As I said we can agree to disagree, but please do not change a definition of a term to suit your thoughts. Duple does not mean half. It is double. As in two for one. Just as triplet is 3 for 1, quadruplet is 4 for 1, quintuplet, etc. Duplet is 2 for 1. Not half.
The choice of the two is where we shall agree to disagree!
As with triplet, quintuplet, etc we are squeezing more notes into that one....not making less duration than before. But this discussion was never why I posted the problem. Just to get a confirmation that it was not just another annoying something I was experiencing with the program, and I did hear that. So I am back to work!
In reply to As I said we can agree to… by R. L. F.
"I said we can agree to disagree, but please do not change a definition of a term to suit your thoughts. "
I'm not changing anything but use duplet how it is defined in music. You seem to have your own special idea about what it is, and use analogy with triplet to assert the duration is shorter while it is the opposite.
Ok.
Why not.
If you are happy to think so I will not try to convince you.
In reply to There is no doubt at all… by frfancha
YES!
In reply to Using Windows 10 and I see… by FBXOPWKDOIR2
Thanks for confirming something similar in another OS. I always wonder! Yes it is a bug or something?
Thanks again for the comment
In reply to Thanks for confirming… by R. L. F.
TLDR;
duple
duplet
https://musescore.org/en/project/advanced-tuplets by XiaoMigros
https://musescore.org/en/handbook/3/time-signatures#local-time-signatur…
Probably this apparent bug should get reported on GitHub
There once was a similar issue, with 12/8, https://github.com/musescore/MuseScore/issues/12546
Switching a 9/8 duplet's number type to relation shows that is is a 2:9 one. It can't be a 2:3 one, as there's no duration for that, as 9 can't get divided by 2 and result in a valid single duration
So maybe this isn't a bug after all
What you really want (2 half durations in the space of 2.25) is an 8-let