Time signs in lute tablature should be bigger

• Feb 18, 2016 - 23:06

The time signatures in lute tablature are too small for the 6 lines.
Currently they have the same size as in notation, but because of the additional line the time sign looks smaller in comparison to the same sized time sign in notation (see attached picture).

I therefore want to request to make time signatures in tablature bigger by default. I know that I could use them as text and adjust it, but I don't think this is a real solution, as an adjusted size is essential to music engraving and it should be done automatically.


In reply to by Nicolas

Maybe 125% to 150%, but I think 125% would be enough (5 vertical spaces in tablature to 4 in notation) and would not need to much space.
As it seems, time signs have by default a size of 20.
In my examples with "C" and "3/4" I used a size of 25 (3rd line) and 30 (4th line).
Timesignatures1.png Timesignatures2.png

In reply to by MLutz

Probably it could make sense to choose the size of key (in notation) and time sign according to the overall height of the system's lines. If one increases it (what possibly isn't sensefull at all), time sign and key will be to small (they won't be changed at all).

In reply to by richard civiol

As far as I know a "2" or "3" - singular time signs are possible already in musescore (you have to go to the master palette), but there the size problem is even more obvious!

Is the feature of enlargening time signs in tablature already on the list?
I again want to support it, as it is a pity to have such small time signs in lute systems.
A workaround, but no solution!, is to set the time sign invisible and add a text with the symbol, that can be adjusted as one wishes.

It even could be useful, especially for such cases, to have the possibility of user-defined sizes of time signs!

BTW - if the TAB-clef is not shown, which is default for lute instruments, it even could be senseful to shift automatically the time sign to the left.

In reply to by MLutz

Have you seen in Special Characters (Ctrl + T + F2) -> Musical symbols, you have these time signatures? Of course, ordinary text may be used also, whith the possibility to change the size and the font.
time signatures.jpg
You change the size (eg around 38/40, see image below - or bigger, according to your wish, ), and then you drop this time sig in a palette for reuse later (the custom size is keeped of course).
time 3.jpg

In reply to by cadiz1

Yes, that is possible - and I changed some time signs that way. But especially with time signs like 3/4 etc. this always means much shifting and moving, as you can't easily save that as one time sign in the palette - at least I didn't manage to do. If the lineheight could be changed, it possibly would be no problem. But as this isn't possible you have to use 2 different signs to do it, which cannot be saved in the palette - and you need to have 2 sizes of most numbers for singular and combined time signs.

Possible, but far from optimal in my opinion.

In reply to by MLutz

Non optimal yes.
For the 3/4, I often use only the 3, or the fraction 3/4 (also in Time signature, with adapted size). Different. Miguel Serdoura use this sort of fraction in his baroque lute method.
fraction 3.jpg

With higher size:
plus gros.jpg

And eg in the works for lute of Baron, there is this sort of offset (not the same rendering of course)

In reply to by cadiz1

I don't like that fractioned time sign. But I have changed the code in 2.1 (currently only on my computer) to have the "normal" time signs automatically adjusted to number of lines and line distance. I attach a file that shows, how it looks then.
If this is acceptable, I would make a pull request.

Attachment Size
TestTimeSignatures.mscz 15.45 KB

For what is worth, I do not feel current time signature to be too small and I do not like the look of the bigger ones at all. In addition, when there are other instruments, like in the examples above, their time signatures go too far away from the notes.

Aside, in my original implementation, there was a small blank space added between the upper and to lower sign -- so that they did not touch each other -- which I do not see in those screen shots (maybe too small to see?). I wonder if something got lost in the subsequent development...

In reply to by Miwarre

Hi Miwarre, I know, that there is a problem of horizontal justification and these signatures may be a little bit too fat now ...
There is a small gap between the numbers, but it indeed might be too small.

Probably time signatures (as segment) should be centered in some way.
Or, maybe better for lute tablature, the signatures could be set to the left, as there is no clef in lute tablature.

To have the chance to adjust size of time signatures, the possibility to set the size of them (as part of stafftype), would probably be the best solution, don't you think?
That would help me and help you, as I think, that the time signatures should be at least a little bit bigger, when staff distance and line number is bigger than normal notation.

So in short, I have no problem, if this pull request is rejected, as long as there will be given a possibility to change the size of time signatures. Especially for such sigs as "3" that is more than evident, in my opinion.

BTW - in historical tablatures size of time signatures often even is bigger than the complete staff, as in the example by cadiz1.

In reply to by MLutz

I don't think it's a good idea to link the size of the time signature to the number of lines in the staff. It would be better to have control over the size of time signature for a given staff or for a given timesig.

In reply to by Nicolas

D'accord - no problem for me, as it really is very difficult to get a reasonable size calculated with lines and distances (I tried some, when I programmed it).

Probably this could also be added to the stave properties like the fingering thing (only for tablatures - or are there other systems, where this should be possible?):
Changing the size of time signature, probably best within a certain range (up to 2.0 possibly - I even think that would be much to big).

Anyway I think it would be good to also have the possibility to change the size of time signs also - it's a pity that it is not yet possible to save size of symbols in a palette. For instance singular time signs ("3" or "2") should be a little bit bigger - at least in manuscript sources they are.

In reply to by Miwarre

Aside, in my original implementation, there was a small blank space added between the upper and to lower sign -- so that they did not touch each other -- which I do not see in those screen shots (maybe too small to see?). I wonder if something got lost in the subsequent development...

In both 2.0.3 and current 2.1, I do see the same small blank space between the top and bottom numbers, and so they don't touch. I don't think we loose anything here. Otherwise, it would be a regression, and you know how careful we are about avoiding regression between point releases ;-)

Do you still have an unanswered question? Please log in first to post your question.