Delete first measure problem

• Sep 6, 2015 - 05:10

I have a score in one flat with four staves for Tenor (treble clef 8vb), ditto, Baritone (bass clef,) Bass (bass clef.) I decided I don't want the first measure, but when I delete it, the key changes to no sharps/flats, the treble clef 8vbs change to regular tenor clefs, and the Baritone (but not Bass) stave clef changes to treble clef 8vb. In theory I could just add back the right key and clefs, but in a complex score I'm not confident, especially given the eccentric way the change acts (why is one bass clef changed but not the other?) that the rest of the score would end up exactly like it was before I deleted the first measure.

I know people have reported first clef delete problems before, but I haven't found exactly this one reported in Musescore 2.0.2. Is there any way I can just delete the first measure and leave everything else exactly as it was?


Comments

Things like clefs, key signatures are like signposts at the beginning of a road but they are not repeated down each segment. Deleting the first measure - as you have found out - deletes all the signs that you have set up. You could any notes, slurs etc. from Measure 1 then insert a measure between M2 and M3, copy the notes from M2 to M1 and then delete M2.

In reply to by Isaac Weiss

Yes, it occurred to me to try that after I made my posting and it seems to work. I still think though that this isn't good design. Surely wanting to delete a first measure without changing anything else is a more common situation than wanting to delete the first measure and having that deletion automatically make other global changes.

Addition: I spoke too soon, it only sort of works. I can make the key sig stay like that, but the clefs still get changed.

In reply to by jcorelis

Deleting any other measure deletes any clef and key signature it contains; I don't particularly liek the idea of there being a special case for the first measure, although I can see how occasionally it might seem like it makes sense. Probably no more so than for deleting any other measure though.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

My own current experience doesn't quite conform to this. For instance, as I write this I have Musescore open in another window, displaying a score in 2/2 with four vocal staves: soprano with a regular treble clef, alto ditto, tenor with 8vb treble clef, and bass with regular bass clef. I will cntl-del the first measure; I now have a score with soprano with a regular treble clef, alto ditto, tenor with 8vb treble clef, and bass with regular bass clef, and a key of C Major. In other words, in this case at least (maybe because I used the choral template?) the clefs haven't been all deleted (or all changed to a single global default,) and the key signature, the way I look at it, is not deleted but is no sharps/flats, which after all is a perfectly respectable key signature like any other.

Further experimentation shows that in a single staff instrumental score with a 8vb treble clef, deleting the first measure does change the 8vb treble clef to a regular treble clef.

So I think the situation is more complicated than just "clef and key are deleted."

One reason for giving the first measure special treatment is that it is often a pickup measure, which you are prompted for when you create the score, and which you may later decide you don't want. This has happened several times to me.

In reply to by jcorelis

What *should* be happening, I believe, is that deleting a measure with a clef in it deletes the clef, meaning the previous clef remains in effect. For the first measure of the piece, there is no literally previous clef, and there does have to be *some* clef (otherwise MuseScore would not know how to display notes!), so what should be substituted is whatever is defined as the default clef *for that instrument*, I believe. So yes, you should expect to see deleting the first measure of a piece to produce reasonable results with respect to clefs in most cases. The clef in the measure is deleted and replaced with the previous/default clef.

Key signatures work the same way, except here there is no default key for an instrument; delete a key signature simply leaves you with C (or the transposed equivalent when dealing with transposing instruments and not in Concert Pitch mode).

I do understand how sometimes you would want special treatment of the first measure. I suspect there are other cases where one wouldn't, and that consistency is not a bad thing. Still, it seems if there is overwhelming support for the idea of special-casing the first measure, it's not an unreasonable thing to consider.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

For reference, this subject came up again here (in particular in comments #1 and #2): https://musescore.org/fr/node/89401

I can understand there would be no particular reason, theoretically, to differentiate a measure (eg the first one) from another measure (let's say, the thirtieth ) concerning the deletion of the key signature.
Nevertheless, as has been seen, this behavior has not been the same during the last two years, more or less. Between May 2014 (I do not know for before) and March 2015, the key signature was not removed.

And I notice that there had been no complaints about this behavior during this period. These complaints arose, precisely, after the change (as noticed in the first mentioned link) in March 9.
In the practice, people (some people) seem work differently within a score, rather that at the very beginning. Or, they consider that the expected behavior is to preserve the key signature in this location?

See some testimonies:
- In the present thread, above: read in particular the initial comment: “In theory I could just add back the right key and clefs, but in a complex score I'm not confident”
or “ I still think though that this isn't good design. Surely wanting to delete a first measure without changing anything else is a more common situation than wanting to delete the first measure and having that deletion automatically make other global changes”
and “One reason for giving the first measure special treatment is that it is often a pickup measure, which you are prompted for when you create the score, and which you may later decide you don't want. This has happened several times to me.

- And https://musescore.org/fr/node/89376 : note the unexpected result in the first comment: “Score had become key of C instead of F”
EDIT: in comment #5 of the same thread above: " 6 empty bars at the start [considered] as 'workspace' "

- And https://musescore.org/en/node/78146 (read third comment: “very confusing”)

These comments are to be considered. Personally, my feeling is to be also surprised by the removal of this key signature in the first measure (like a premonition of something bad happens!), but less surprised by the deletion of any other key signature in the following measures, if it is the case (the feeling that it is less dangerous ?!) A little crooked, right? :) Or rather, or also, the habit of the behavior of the 1.3 and 2.0 Betas 1 and 2?

For the record, and for thought, Sibelius does not remove the key signature in the first measure (but the time signature is deleted, with a prevention message): note that the version 1.3 of MuseScore does the same (keysig remains, timesig disappears).
Finale, and also Guitar Pro, deletes neither the one and the other (in other words, the two are kept!) in this first measure.

So, to summarize, for these mentioned programs, currently :
- Sibelius 7.5 : first measure : key signature is kept ; other measures : ditto

- Finale 2012 : first measure : key signature is kept ; other measures : ditto

- Guitar Pro 6: first measure : key signature is kept , other measures: ditto

- MuseScore 1.3 : first measure : key signature is kept ; other measures : deleted

- MuseScore 2.0 Beta1 and Beta2  until March 9, 2015 : first measure : key signature is kept ; other measures : deleted

- 2.0  (March 24) : first measure : key signature is deleted ; other measures : deleted.

The 2.0 on this point has the merit of consistency. But in practice, this behavior seems unexpected or at least surprising, if not disturbing (for this first measure). And it differs significantly on this point in comparison of the other programs. Or let's say that they have an opposite consistency.

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