TAB staff shared note between two voices
Hi,
I am trying to notate a TAB staff with two voices, where both voices share the first pitch. Voice 1 is already entered, but when I attempt to enter the first pitch/TAB location in voice 2 (shared with voice 1), the first note in voice 1 is automatically transferred to another string/fret. If I wanted Voice 1 on that string/fret, I would have entered it that way myself. How do I stop this from happening?
Thanks,
Lewis
Comments
Seems you shouldn't need to notate it twice at all if it is shared between the voices in tab. If you want to show it shared in standard notation you could simply hide the extra note in the tab. Or do you have something else in mind?
In reply to Seems you shouldn't need to by Marc Sabatella
I'm sorry, I don't understand exactly what you are suggesting. What do you mean by the "extra note"? How could it not be necessary to enter the same note twice if one is meant for voice 1, while the other is meant for voice 2?
In reply to I'm sorry, I don't understand by lewisk
Because in tablature, there would normally be no need to show both voices in that way. In fact a lot of people don't use multiple voices at all with tablature, they just use a single voice with appropriately-adjusted note lengths (same with drum notation come to think of it).
I guess maybe it would help if you attached your score so we could see what sort of situatiuon you are looking at that appears to make it necessary to show both notes even though it's the same physical finger on the same physical string.
In reply to Because in tablature, there by Marc Sabatella
I appreciate your time and thoughtfulness in answering my questions on this software both now and in the past. But I feel my issue here is a simple one and my question was clear. I teach music at the college level and am a longtime active composer, so with all due respect I'm not looking for pointers on how my music should be notated. :-)
I tried what I think you suggested, which is to hide the "wrong" note (entered, BTW, by the software and not by myself) in one of the voices - of course I then have to adjust the affected stem and beam. This is not the elegant solution I was looking for, but one nonetheless.
In reply to I appreciate your time and by lewisk
Sometimes MuseScore is too smart and won't let you do things it know is impossible (like 2 notes on the same string) without some work.
In reply to Sometimes MuseScore is too by mike320
I'm unconvinced that this particular problem is due to MuseScore being "smart." Having two voices joined on a single note is every bit as "impossible" in piano music - but this is commonly found and rightly accommodated by the software. Admittedly it might not be as common in TAB notation, but MuseScore seems to go out of its way to make it near impossible to do something as simple as placing an upward and a downward stem on the same fret number. This seems unnecessary to me.
In reply to I'm unconvinced that this by lewisk
The difference is that a piano only has one way to play a middle C, where there is more than one on a guitar. When the pianist sees it, he knows that it is in 2 lines of music to make the music make sense. On the violin it is expected that the section is playing divisi, so both parts will play the same note. If it is unison then there are notes telling the violinist which strings to play the 2 unison notes on. On a standard staff, it is expected that multiple instruments can be reading the same staff. The Guitar is almost never part of a section of guitars playing in unison with divisi parts off the same sheet of music. If you were not trying to do this in tablature, this conversation would not be occurring. Guitars are capable (like the violin) of playing multiple notes including unisons and the tablature defaults to indicating that. By necessity it is difficult to work around this. There are so many unusual situations out there that work arounds are inevitable. MuseScore makes it easier for the amateur to coherently notate music rather than making the extraordinary situation such as this easier.
In reply to The difference is that a by mike320
Did you see this example I posted (below)? https://musescore.org/sites/musescore.org/files/freight_train_tab_0.png
Would you describe that as "extraordinary"?
In reply to Did you see this example I by lewisk
Yes that's extraordinary and Marc explained how it was done. You can see the difference in the several of the stems with hidden "heads" It's not difficult to accomplish. You can do as many as you can ctrl-click at one time. If you click a note to select it, then ctrl-click more notes (one at a time), anything you do in the inspector affects all the notes selected.
In reply to Sometimes MuseScore is too by mike320
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In reply to I appreciate your time and by lewisk
I guess I'[m honestly confused by your question, then. I am not accustomed to seeing tablature notated the way it appears you are describing it. So perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are describing. Which is why I'm asking for an example, to help clarify. Like, are you picturing two numbers side by side on the same string, with stems pointing up and down as for standard notation, as your method of indicating this? This is specifically what I am not accustomed to seeing. So maybe you mean something else? More explanation would help us understand.
In reply to I guess I'[m honestly by Marc Sabatella
Two stems, one upward and one downward, on a single fret number. I found this visual in the TAB section of the MuseScore handbook-- https://musescore.org/sites/musescore.org/files/freight_train_tab_0.png
I don't know how that was achieved, whether it was an earlier version of MuseScore or whether they used some other method I've not yet found..
In reply to Two stems, one upward and one by lewisk
Looks to me it uses exactly the method I described in the first place - entering the note onto two different strings then hiding the "wrong" notehead. I just tried it and it's easy enough to get that same result. You can even fine-tune the stem position and length to complete the illusion.
One reason I was unclear on the desired result is that there are so many different styles of tablature. Some don't use stems at all, others use stems but place them above/below the staff, others use other forms of notation to indicate rhythm. And as I said, many people don't use multiple voices at all when notating tablature. So without a picture, it was really unclear which specific effect you were trying to achieve.
In reply to Looks to me it uses exactly by Marc Sabatella
Sorry if I was unclear. I use an elaborate form of TAB since much of my music involves microtonal scordatura guitar. Though I've used notation software before, this is the my first attempt trying to digitally type-set one of my own compositions. Overall I'm impressed with MuseScore's TAB capability, despite a few obstacles like these that I've come up against. Thanks for your timely and thoughtful responses, much appreciated!
FYI-- I realized the workaround of hiding noteheads, moving beams, etc., would have been way too complicated and time consuming given the quantity and complexity of material in this section.. so I devised a slightly different notational scheme that I think will work.
In reply to Looks to me it uses exactly by Marc Sabatella
Indeed, nothing especial. It's the "good" and expected behavior.
To summarize, as said, it's physically impossible to have the two same fret position on the same string.
And, in more, it's the way to choice the better location for you in a certain context (you know same notes in guitar can be played in different locations).
So, just to hide the not desired location (of the "extra note/fret") with V key. That's all.
See the files to explain this (first, with your image - the beginning) and the rest, to explain why this entering allows to choice: Voices gt.mscz
The same after untick in View -> "Show invisible": Voices gt bis.mscz
The same file with the Tab "complete" type: Voices gt bis, complete type.mscz
![result 2 voices.jpg]( "result 2 voices.jpg")
And to finish: the image rendering of pdf/second file.
In reply to Indeed, nothing especial. by cadiz1
If I'm manually entering music in TAB notation, doesn't it stand to reason that I know which frets/positions I want? I can't see how it can be useful for the amateur or anyone else for a note to be automatically transferred to a fret/string not entered by the user. And why the insistence on the "impossibility" of two notes on a single fret? This is a visual that appears in the MuseScore handbook of all places that exemplifies exactly what I'm talking about. https://musescore.org/sites/musescore.org/files/freight_train_tab_0.png
As I said, it is no less "impossible" for a key on a piano than a fret/string of a guitar.
In reply to If I'm manually entering by lewisk
"As I said, it is no less "impossible" for a key on a piano than a fret/string of a guitar."
Well: on a piano, the G3 note eg can be played in a single location, nowhere else.
On a guitar, the same note it can be played on:
- the third open string
- or on the fourth string 5th fret
- or on the fifth string 10th fret.
(and please, take the time to examine quietly the attached test files in previous comment)
In reply to "As I said, it is no less by cadiz1
I'm not talking about different locations where the same note can be played. (In my case, since I'm writing for microtonal scordatura guitar, you don't get the same note on different strings, but I understand why that could be considered extraordinary. But that's beside the point.) My point is that you can have 2 voices meet on a single note of a piano and they can also meet on a single fret/string of a guitar. Neither should be viewed as "impossible" by those designing the software.
In reply to I'm not talking about by lewisk
"My point is that you can have 2 voices meet on a single note of a piano and they can also meet on a single fret/string of a guitar"
Again, it is possible. See images below (from the attached files)
In reply to "My point is that you can by cadiz1
I know it's possible. Please see messages above.
@lewisk
As a guitarist, I find all this very interesting, especially since TAB is a recent feature of MuseScore 2.x.
Since you are writing for microtonal scordatura guitar, I can see why you would use something like TAB as a substitute for standard notation. After all, notating quarter tones and such, along with alternate tunings would be a challenge for any guitarist to actually sight read such a score written in standard notation. Tablature, since it shows where to 'place the fingers' seems like it should fit the bill, although you may be taxing the limits.
As you are probably aware, MuseScore has three different TAB flavors: simple, common, and full. Simple is definitely out of the question as you require the trappings of standard notation - meter, beamed notes, voices, etc. Also, you mentioned your need for two stems, one upward and one downward, on a single fret number. This, of course, is possible in standard notation - where a single note can have an up and a down stem (i.e. two voices); even though, as mentioned, a piano can play only one. You even mentioned a visual that appears in the MuseScore handbook of all places that exemplifies exactly what I'm talking about. Also, you wrote: I don't know how that was achieved, whether it was an earlier version of MuseScore or whether they used some other method I've not yet found..
The referenced handbook image shows this:
There actually do exist empty spaces where (unison) fret numbers were made invisible - look closely.
So, it's not "exactly" what you mean, but may be close enough? If so, use the 'full' Tab version and the stems will appear more like standard musical notation. Sure, there may be fret numbers that need to be hidden. (Only the very lowest notes will display perfectly - since there are no other unison notes located elsewhere on the fretboard.)
BTW: Cadiz1's posted examples used the 'common' TAB version. Please look at them carefully - he shows how different fret numbers are used for 2 (unison) notes. It's a capability of stringed instruments.
Perhaps someday they can make the 'extra' fret number an option, so it will suit your use case better.
Anyway, I wish you success with your slightly different notational scheme.
In reply to @lewisk As a guitarist, I by Jm6stringer
Wow, thanks for taking the time to go through all that. FYI- the TAB staff is not meant to serve as a substitute, but rather is given below conventional notation (sounding pitches). I used to indicate only fret numbers on the TAB staff, expecting guitarists to refer to the upper staff for rhythm, articulation, etc. I've had so many guitarists request that I put stems also in the lower TAB staff that I eventually got into the habit of doing that.
As mentioned, in microtonal scordatura (an extraordinary case), it is rare for two fret numbers on different strings to produce the same pitch. It can happen, e.g. String 6, 14th fret is the same pitch as open String 3. Of course a much different color. Anyway, I've been working with string instruments for a long time and teach a course on orchestration-- don't need people explaining to me the capabilities of string instruments :-) :-) :-o
I don't say this to be mean or unappreciative, and as stated previously I'm impressed by MuseScore the software and the support page. But to be taken seriously as a notation software, it would be good for those on the support page to focus on answering the questions asked and not trying to insist on "educating" the user on musical subjects (like standard notation practice or orchestration). I'm sure though doing this is sometimes necessary, when a beginner asks a question that demonstrates a clear lack of knowledge on a certain musical subject - but that was not the case here. I understand everyone's just trying to help, but if the default mode is trying to give unsolicited musical advice/instruction, rather than keeping to the question asked, it's kind of a turn-off. Just my 2 cents for what it's worth. Thanks everyone for your time.
In reply to Wow, thanks for taking the by lewisk
Good Luck...
In reply to Wow, thanks for taking the by lewisk
For the record, I *did* try to answer the question, and in fact told you precisely how to achieve the effect shown. It's just that there really wasn't enough information in your original question to make clear what you were trying to do. For instance, you didn't mention stems at all, or scordatura, or microtonal music. As far as I could tell, you really might have been literally trying to put two numbers on the same string, which might be a common beginner mistake for someone unfamiliar with how tablature works of what multiple voices are normally used for. We have no way of knowing the experience level of people who ask questions here, but as you might imagine, it tends to skew toward beginners (by *far* the most common question we answer here is just explaining what multiple voices are for). We can't read minds here, we are simply trying to help the best we can given the incomplete picture we had of the situation. Hopefully you realize no insult is intended.
In reply to For the record, I *did* try by Marc Sabatella
Yes.
answered and solved In first messages.
In reply to For the record, I *did* try by Marc Sabatella
Yes, thank you for answering my question in the first messages. I'm glad to clarify if something's not clear in my question.
In reply to Yes, thank you for answering by lewisk
As far as I know we understand each other now. I get what you are trying to do and why. And you are seeing how to use invisible notes to achieve the result in your screenshot, correct?
In reply to As far as I know we by Marc Sabatella
Yes, but I am coming across other issues, e.g. the cursor frequently reverting to voice 1 when trying to enter/edit music in voice 2. There are other problems inherent in multiple-voice TAB notation unrelated to my perceived issue with MuseScore, e.g. when you have a note in voice 2 on a higher string than voice 1, you can't see which stem is meant for which note.
As long as we're saying things "for the record," my issue had to do with the insistence (by others, not you) that my problem with the software had to do not with the software but with my own "impossible" or irrational basis for wanting to notate my music a certain way and the assumption that this arose out of a lack of a basic understanding of how string instruments work. I think as MuseScore grows and improves, more and more professional musicians will be using it and presented with challenges and asking questions.
In reply to Yes, but I am coming across by lewisk
My sense is, the cursor will indeed change voices if you move onto a string that already has a note - it will adopt the voice of that note. And my recollection is that this is deliberate, the result of user suggestions during the beta period for the original MuseScore 2 release, although I can't say I remember the specific use case that prompted the suggestion. I have no opinion on whether this is truly a good thing or not. You might consider starting a new thread to discuss the subject.
Also, FWIW there are already quite a large number of professional musicians (myself included) using MuseScore regularly and participating on the forums here. I didn't mean to imply it is *all* beginners. Just that in the absence of context, sometimes it is hard for us to know. Regardless of what we assume by default, we'll be right some times and wrong other times. So it is inevitable that some times our initial answers won't be the most appropriate in these cases.
In reply to My sense is, the cursor will by Marc Sabatella
There is a microtonal composer/violinist named Marc Sabat. Maybe you know him?
In reply to There is a microtonal by lewisk
Not personally, but we've crossed paths a couple of times before and corresponded some. There is also a Marc Sabate out there...
I'm 5 years late to the discussion but the issue is still relevant in musescore (OS: Windows 10 (10.0), Arch.: x86_64, MuseScore version (64-bit): 3.6.2.548021803, revision: 3224f34.)
As shown in the attached screenshot, two notes sharing the same fret is not allowed in the tab. The best option is to make the 'wrong' fret tab note invisible via the inspector.