Page bottom looks wrong
I have setup my page to A3 landscape where all margins are 10mm. I appended a text frame after all staffs, you can see that situation in the attached screenshot. There is more than enough space between text frame bottom and page bottom margin. But if I enter one line more in the text frame then a page break occur.
I think there is enough space to enter 3 lines more text. All options of the text frame are default and zero.
Is this a bug in MuseScore 2.2.1 or do I something wrong here?
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Comments
Try replacing with a vertical frame.
Can you attach the score you are having problems with?
The space you see as 'free' is the one between the margin of the frame and the margin of the page.
In reply to Try replacing with a… by Shoichi
I tried to append a vertical frame, same result. I need to shrink the frame height from 10 to 6, so that page break is removed, but then the frame is very small and I have much space behind it. I attached the MuseScore file.
I tried also to add an own text style, so that I have a border around my text. I am wondering that I cannot set just a color to the frame border itself, so that I have a visible rectangle which spawns the whole width. But anyway the new text style is also not really inside the text frame, it is a little bit outside and I tried already all settings for vertical text reference.
The next thing in MuseScore is, I see always in most lists (also in the text style list) that everything is unordered and not alphabetically ordered.
In reply to I tried to append a vertical… by unique75m
Alphabetical order would not be reflected in other language versions.
From: File/Score properties I have added a landmark;
I appended a vertical frame and positioned the text;
Right click the text->Text Style...-> set the colour;
You can drag the text...
In reply to Alphabetical order would not… by Shoichi
a https://musescore.org/en/handbook/palettes-and-workspaces#custom-palett… ?
In reply to a https://musescore.org/en… by Shoichi
Hi Shoichi
you totally misunderstood me.
I asked myself, where is a button "alphabetical" in the Palette, but then I understood, that you just created a new palette and named it "alphabetical". It seems you reorder it manually. That is the most bad option. I do not want to reorder a list manually, it should be ordered automatically. And it should not make a difference for other language versions. This sounds for me like a bug, when a software orders a list based on the internal English representation and not on the really visible names.
I have created that new text style. It is clear that I can change now the border color in my own text style. But that is not what I asked for. I asked why the text frame (not my new text style) has no color option for border. I cannot create a rectangle that spawns the whole width with a colored border.
In reply to Hi Shoichi… by unique75m
See: https://musescore.org/en/node/272277
I just suggested a workaround to take advantage of some possibilities of the software.
Frames, like other elements, are usually only reference points that are not printed.
In reply to See: https://musescore.org… by Shoichi
Ok thank you. That means there is no possibility to make a colored border that spawn the whole page width. But why is my own text style outside of the text frame. If you make the frame borders and page borders visible in view menu, you can see, that my own text is now outside of the text frame, a little bit over the top border. And the other things is, there is much space between the text frame bottom and the page bottom, but I cannot increase the height of text frame, then it will create a page break. Normally it should be possible to use all the available space, where text frame bottom = page bottom.
In reply to Ok thank you. That means… by unique75m
@ unique75m
Here are a text frame and a vertical frame
The text frame automatically adapts to the content. You can't adjust it.
The vertical frame, with a double click, allows you to use the handles for adjustment.
In both cases you can drag the text where appropriate.
Using the space bar you can 'request' more text space.
In this way you can get that the border, generated with the properties of the text, coincides, more or less, with the margins of the frame.
Just one trick ;-)
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
In reply to @ unique75m… by Shoichi
Ok I can follow your described examples. I also used the wrong words, sorry. But independent if I use a vertical frame and add a text, or if I use a text frame directly... I cannot enter much lines of text. There is so much space left until I reach the page bottom, but the page break occurs much earlier.
Please edit the text in my example and press a return so that you should get 2 lines of text. There is so much space left until page bottom, but this second line produces already a page break and the text is then on page 2. I think there is enough space for approx. 4-6 text lines and I do not understood why a page break happens. Neither the text frame bottom nor the vertical frame botton reaches the page bottom line.
In reply to Ok I can follow your… by unique75m
Because, in your file there is a text frame. In the attached one a vertical frame
In reply to Because, in your file there… by Shoichi
Please do the following steps:
Normally I could have approx. a vertical frame with height 10 or more and it should not produces a page break. There is enough space on page 1.
In reply to Please do the following… by unique75m
It would be easier to adjust the page size; Layout/Page settings.>Scaling
Anyway, leave the height of vertical frame to 6;
Add the Text. You can go to the next lines and then drag it even out of the edges of the frame.
(I selected it and used the Inspector for formatting)
In reply to It would be easier to adjust… by Shoichi
Thanks. Maybe this would be the only work-around. I have added now a vertical frame. Then I added a text to this vertical frame. I could write new lines in the text, so that the text overlaps the vertical frame. With this solution I can write more lines until I reach the end of page. Of course there is no page break anymore, also not when my text overlaps the page bottom.
But I think this is a bug, that I cannot use the full space of page. I tested that also now with staffs. If you delete all the text/vertical frames at bottom and you just insert two new staffs you get the same problem. I was able to setup a staff distance in Style > Common > Page to 5.8sp. You see then enough space under the last staff. If I change the distance to 5.9sp I get a page break, which makes absolutely no sense, because of the free space at bottom.
If you change the staff distance to 5.7sp you see that the difference in consuming page space is not so much between 5.7sp and 5.8sp. So changing it to 5.9sp should not make a page break. I think there is a bug inside the calculation of available space.
In reply to It would be easier to adjust… by Shoichi
I have now researched a little bit more. If I leave all page margins to 10mm and increase the page height to exactly 310mm, then I can use the bottom space like it would be an A3 with 10mm margins. I can then increase the height of vertical frame and the bottom of that frame is then at a position, where normally the A3 landscape paper would end with bottom margin.
A normal A3 paper landscape has an height of 297mm. That means there must somewhere a wrong calculation in MuseScore that has exactly 13mm inaccuracy. In our country the 13 means bad luck :-). I think I have now bad luck, I cannot use the full paper :-)
But increasing the paper height with 13mm would be now the second workaround.
In reply to Hi Shoichi… by unique75m
A programmer should add a comment to this discussion, or better still, Shoichi's feature request that items be alphabetized such as the palette. The list must be stored somewhere, the only question is weather it would be a manual process to alphabetize such a list or if it could be automated based upon the language.
In reply to I programmer should add a… by mike320
The better examples are the lists in Style -> Common and Style -> Text. The list items are just unordered. In the Style -> Text the ordering is just the order of adding a new item. I have a German computer and looking at these lists is not useful.
In reply to The better examples are the… by unique75m
Style -> Text: It seems to me the analytical list of the elements starting from the top of the page (approximately).
In reply to The better examples are the… by unique75m
Indeed, there is logic to the order of text styles as well as palettes, although neither are necessarily great nor even that consistent. As mentioned, alphabetic order would have the disadvantage of being different for every language. Also probably less efficient, especially for the palettes, as you'd be jumping around a lot more (no logical reason for clefs, key signatures, time signatures, and barlines to be far apart since they are often being changed at similar points in the score and in the editing workflow). Also, alphabetic ordering presupposes you remember the name of the palette; organizing logically allows you to find something by knowing where other similar palettes are - in theory, again.
In reply to Indeed, there is logic to… by Marc Sabatella
I do not really understand what you mean "alphabetic order would be different in different languages". Of course the sorting is alphabetic and this changes with every language. But it is just alphabetic. If you mean that you sort the text by an internal representation and this sorting looks different for every language, that is true. But this is the most wrong way to sort a list, that is displayed in the UI. Such lists must be always sorted with the translated texts and not with an internal representation (mostly english). The real displayed text is important and that must be sorted alphabetically. Everything else makes absolutely no sense.
I agree that for palettes some users want a manual order, so that they can order the most important things at top. But users like me want maybe an alphabetic order. For that it could exists a simple toggle button in the palettes that activates alphabetic order and overrides the manual ordering.
In reply to That is simply not true,… by unique75m
I mean that if we used alphabetic ordering, the position of a given palette would depend on what language you were currently using. Not good for support or people switching languages. Maybe that's not enough reason in itself, but it's just another point. To me its the logic factor that is most important. Any scheme that fails to put key and time signatures near each other is a non-starter.
In reply to I mean that if we used… by Marc Sabatella
I agree with you in same point like for note durations. It makes sometimes sense to have important things in adjacent order in list or for keyboard entry. But there should be also an option to switch to alphabetical order. From your viewpoint I can also ask why the grace notes are the first in the palette list. This is nothing that a beginner would use.
I think your viewpoint is too technical inspired, less stress for the engineers/support, more stress for the customer. I think the opposite thinking is the better way.
Think about a car, where the engine is build inside the cabin. Ohh it is very nice for the engineer. He can sit while he work on the engine and at same time he can push all buttons on the cockpit. He never must stand or walk around the car. Easy live, but not for the customer :-)
The predefined palette ordering is just the favorite setting of the developer, but maybe not for users like me. Of course I can create an own palette, rearrange everything alphabetically. But why should I do that job, what a computer can do better? And of course the rearranging is also less intuitive, always clicking a context menu to move/up and down. Drag/Drop would be better, but this is not working for me.
In all other lists in Styles settings I have no chance to rearrange something. I must live with the predefined order and when I add something it is added at bottom, so that means it is just a first-in-order.
In our company I had an example in past with our secretary. We asked for a list of phone numbers and associated people. Her first result was a paper where everything was sorted by numbers, so that some numbers could be better grouped by region etc. I asked her... Do you really look in a phone book and search peoples by their phone numbers? No, the humans look for the name and they want an alphabetical order, else searching on that list is too time-consuming. Now we have an alphabetical list with people names. Because nobody know the priority list of our secretary when she builded the first list.
I think the same happens for palettes and lists. No beginner knows the reasons and priorities, why a developer puts item X at position Y in a palette. A beginner has a word in head like "clef" and want to search it in list. If this list is not alphabetically the search is too time-consuming.
In reply to I mean that if we used… by Marc Sabatella
I have attached a picture how the style editor looks for me. I always searching with my eyes around the list items to find something.
In reply to I have attached a picture… by unique75m
This picture illustrates my point well. I have only a rudimentary knowledge of German, but I can nonetheless help a German user find what he is looking because I know where the element is in the English version.
Note it's pretty much universally true that programs don't alphabetize menus - "File" then "Edit" etc, with "Help" at the end, somewhere after "View". Nor do we alphabetize the contents of those menus. "Open" comes before "Save", but both come before "Close". Logic really does have value. But here again, sure, different strokes for different folks, and actually a current Google Summer of Code project for MuseScore is looking to bring even more customization to MuseScore, including customizable menus.
The current order for the menus and palettes is not meant to help developers - it is to help users, by grouping related things together, just as many users want. If the goal were to help developers, the order would basically just be, the order that the palettes were developed in :-)
But sure, like you said, since there does exist a subset of users who prefer the alphabet over logic, and since computers are good at alphabetizing, some day it might be nice to also add an automatic alphabetizer to the UI. Can you point to other programs that do this, so we can see good models for how users would expect such a control to look and function? I can't actually think of any - which perhaps says something in itself...
As for grace notes, well, like I said, I am not saying I am not defending every single specific choice made, and that one is a fine example of one that makes little sense to me.
In reply to This picture illustrates my… by Marc Sabatella
Your answer illustrates my point as well too :-)
Your problem is that you cannot read other languages than English and you make that little issue to a problem of all others who want to use the application. I understand you fully, because I am a developer too and I know all these problems to identify things from screenshots, where something is in Chinese as example. I cannot read that too. But that can never be the reason to make a half-internationalization of an application. How is your answer if you need an arabic version of MuseScore where everything is printed from right to left. Will you really answer then too, that you need your favorite left-to-right pattern to see some things In menus etc?
Maybe there should be a rule defined for customers, that they sent only English screenshots to support. The customers could be supported by an integrated support engine. As example you could have a button or context menu item in every MuseScore window, which automatically creates a screenshot from the window, a second screenshot in english (but same order like the native language, so that you can compare it) and opens a dialog, where you can enter a MuseScore forum post. The two pictures are attached then already. The customer needs then just to type the text and press "Send". Everyone would be happy... you are happy that you get your English screenshot, the customer is happy that he can directly do that from MuseScore with less effort and others like me are potentially happy, because you can then use alphabetic ordering.
I understand your point with menus too. But I think for menus there happened something in past that I would call "standardization". Everybody assumes that standardized model that a menu has a "File" Menu at first with "New" as first item. I have used the word "first" instead of "left" and "right", because in arabic world I think your complete layout must be mirrored, so that your "File" menu is at right side :-)
Independent from the alphabetical issue. Did you see my research about the real problem of this post? I found that the page size must be 13mm more, so that you can use the full space of a page. There is something wrong in bounding box calculation. Should I create another thread in another part of forum? I saw there is something special for bugs.
In reply to Your answer illustrates my… by unique75m
Again, supportability is just one small reason to prefer logical ordering over alphabetic. The sheer logic of it, and the corresponding efficiency, is the much more important one. As I said, any ordering that doens't put clefs, key signatures, and time signatures near each other is, to me and a great many other who think logivally and not alphabetically, fundamentally flawed. But other who think alphabetically of course will think the opposite. That's fine, that's why we allow customization. I don't know what else can be said. Half the world prefers Coke, the other half Pepsi, no matter which we provide, half the world is happy, half the world less so. You make the choice you think works the best for the most people.
As for the issue of page size, things are a bit scattered so it's hard to follow. Maybe make a new post with a sample score and precise step by step instructions to reproduce the problem you are seeing now that you've identified an apparent cause.
In reply to Again, supportability is… by Marc Sabatella
I habe changed my MuseScore to English language setting and made some pictures for you.
Settings-ShortCuts.png
The list is alphabetically sorted
Score-Properties.png
The list is alphabetically sorted, except when I add new entries like you see in screenshot as BBB. I found neither a way to delete that BBB item nor to reorder the list items, so there is no customization available.
Instruments.png
The list is not alphabetically sorted, neither the main list nor the sub items. And I cannot see something why one instrument should be preferred against another to have a magic internal logically order. For me a violin is the most important instrument. For one who plays saxophone this one is the most important.
MasterPalette.png
The list is not alphabetically sorted. Of course I do not know why this window exists. It seems to me like a read-only window, where I can nothing resort or change. But maybe this is only because of my less knowledge about that window. To resort a palette I need to create also a custom one, the predefined are not changeable. The manual reordering is a mess... multiple righthclick-contextmenu-movedown to move one item to the right alphabetic position. This is a job for the computer, not for the user.
SelectionFilter.png
The list is not alphabetically sorted. The items cannot be reordered, so there is no customization available. Ok I understand that possibly selection filtering by voices is the most important and on top. But I think it could give persons who like something other things at top
StyleGeneral.png
The list on left is not alphabetically sorted. The items cannot be reordered, so there is no customization available.
StyleText.png
The list on left is not alphabetically sorted. If you add new items to define own text styles they are added at bottom in the order of their adding. There is no possibility to reorder something, customization not available.
PluginManager.png
The list is alphabetically sorted.
So your described customization is only available for custom palettes. It would be easy to add a simple context menu item to all of these lists in the screenshots. This menu item can reorder the lists alphabetically.
If I describe it with your words, I must drink your Pepsi, because there is no way to get the Coke :-)
In reply to I habe changed my MuseScore… by unique75m
A better analogy would be to offer both Coke and Pepsi so you can make your own choice. Other things are alphabetized, there should some way to allow this for pallets and so forth.
In reply to A better analogy would be to… by mike320
Exactly Mike, there should be a way to do also alphabetical ordering in all these lists. But currently there is no way or the way is full of pointed stones (e.g. palettes).
In reply to I habe changed my MuseScore… by unique75m
Once more, yes, some subset of users would prefer alphabetic ordering. Others prefer logical. By default we choose the one we think makes the most sense for the most people. If you happen to prefer a different ordering, you are welcome to customize it, at least for palettes. If you would like to submit a formal feature request to also provide customization options for other controls, you are welcome to do so. If you are a programmer, you are welcome to contribute to the effort!