Forum is hard to find
Hi!
This is about the structure of the Musscore web-site.
When I go here, I'm 99% of the time looking for:
- Download
- User Guide
- Forum
And when I search, it's the handbook or forum I'm after.
Well, the forum seems hard to find.
I can't seem to find Dashboard notifications for the forum.
And search shows me users sheet music.
Supporting a healthy composer showcase i a good thing, but,
please, this is most often not what I'm looking for.
Thanks!
Comments
In the Help menu of the program "Ask for Help" will bring you to the forum. This forum really is not related much to the dashboard. Also, at the bottom of every MuseScore page is a link to the Forum under the Software title. The forum is meant to be used for software support, so this make sense.
In reply to In the Help menu of the… by mike320
Yes, I do find it. But, it seems unnecessary hard.
I'm I misunderstanding what Musescore is?
Isn't it software, with documentation and software support forum?
In reply to Yes, I do find it. But, it… by G-Sun
Musescore.org is the open source non-profit part, download of MuseScore, handbook, forum. Musescore.com is the commercial part, score sharing, iOS and Android songbook app.
In reply to Musescore.org is the open… by Jojo-Schmitz
Yes, and what he is complaining about is that these two things are unneccessarily muddled up together. It is very easy to find yourself in the .com bit (which many of us, for better or worse have no interest in), having to struggle to get back. But we can also see that you cannot see this, do not want to see this, and are sticking your fingers in your ears. It is a pity.
In reply to Yes, and what he is… by Imaginatorium
Pardon? You are talking to me? Why?
In reply to Yes, and what he is… by Imaginatorium
I second these concerns. Being new to MS, yesterday I needed help and through the help menu I ended up in "this website" but I could not find help or a way to talk about software; it was all about music sharing. I looked like crazy for where the help forums were; no way to figure it out. If you say there's a link "software" at the bottom that somehow leads here, then I have to agree 100% with the OP that's NOT intuitive, and is indeed a disastrously bad website design. decision. Nobody looks at bottom of the page links in the first place. And "Software" would normally be a link to a page where you buy software; NOT where help is obtained or bugs are reported. "Software" is akin to "Products".
In reply to I second these concerns. … by danw58
Can you remember how you ended up on musescore.com? The link on the Help menu for "Ask for Help" should have taken you directly to this very forum here on musescore.org, on the page where you would actually type your question so all you have to to is hit Submit. Try it again. Are you finding otherwise? Maybe if you don't have an account already you end up needing to create one, and somewhere along the lines you are accidentally going over to musescore.com instead?
Not saying there isn't room for improvement, but it should be as simple as clicking Help / Ask for Help and you will be taken right here. What happens after that should you decide to stray off the path and wander around is another matter.
That is the difference between musescore.com (dashboard, scores) and musescore.org (forum, handbook, download)
In reply to That is the difference… by Jojo-Schmitz
Ok,
as a person not that familiar with Musescore, it's hard to spot this difference.
Same login, same dashboard.
In reply to Ok,… by G-Sun
No dashboard on musescore.org, no forum on musescore.com
In reply to No dashboard on musescore… by Jojo-Schmitz
Musescore.org
-The dashboard is first under my user tab
(and is where I was expecting to find forum notifications)
musescore.com
Yes, that is what I mean by hard to find forum
In reply to Musescore.org… by G-Sun
Again, there is no dashboard on musescore.org, just a link to it.
Forums are under Support / Forum
In reply to Again, there is no dashboard… by Jojo-Schmitz
In reply to [inline:Musescore.png] by G-Sun
And selecting that leads you to musescore.com, just like the 'Search for sheet music'
In reply to Ok,… by G-Sun
You're not the only person confused by the difference between MuseScore.com and MuseScore.org as described by Jojo. Just remember that on any MuseScore page you can look for sheet music using the search box at the top and get to the forum by using the link at the bottom of the page.
People on the forums usually let you know if the question is more appropriate for the MuseScore.com site but will give a shorter, less thorough, answer than you get from the Improving MuseScore group on MuseScore.com.
In reply to You're not the only person… by mike320
So, there is 2 forums? On the same site?
(Sorry, but the org/com difference doesn't really cut through to me. Same login, same dashboard, same graphics)
" Just remember that on any MuseScore page you can look for sheet music using the search box at the top and get to the forum by using the link at the bottom of the page."
That's really opposite of what's easy to find from my point of view.
In reply to So, there is 2 forums? On… by G-Sun
There are groups on musescore.com, forums on musescore.org. Different things.
In reply to There are groups on… by Jojo-Schmitz
You wonder why I respond to your comment? This one here is a another monumental example of arrogant stupidity. The navigation at musescore.org is confusing. Do you disagree? (Can you respond with a coherent rationale, not more lalala-fingers-in-ears?) Many people point this out, so it is not just me.
Once again, can you give me an example of any other website, in which every page has at the top a fixed, prominent search box, which searches on a different website?
In reply to You wonder why I respond to… by Imaginatorium
@imaginatorium you should look at it as one website with one login and one account, which happens to have two urls.
In reply to @imaginatorium you should… by Thomas
To me, Thomas' model of "one website with one login and one account, which happens to have two urls" is good to keep in mind. I think it's a fine model that should in principle work quite well. The trick is in figuring out how to really convey this.
I would say that if the "merged 'header" includes both search facilities (perhaps one box but with a way to select what is actually searched) as well as the combined menu (eg, everything in musescore.com's menu as well as everything in musescore.org's menu), then we'd be well on our way.
My I just add that I'm very impressed with the software and the helpful community here :)
And, I'm no stranger to forums,
but here: Where do I find my forum notifications?
[edit] Ah, found it (My activity)
Ok, that will help a lot :)
In reply to And, I'm no stranger to… by G-Sun
And under Support / Forum
In reply to And under Support / Forums by Jojo-Schmitz
I agree with what G-Sun said, on this one.
I've used this site for a few years, in a couple of different but broadly similar incarnations. I've now got the hang of finding the forum - but you do need to know where to look, which is far less than ideal, and when I try to search for help, while in the forum, or looking at a help page, I still keep searching the sheet music instead.
It's not well thought out. I'm sure it seems that way when you're part of it, and really familiar with it all, but to anyone who hasn't figured out how to use the site, and doesn't keep using it frequently, it's confusing.
To someone new to the site, or a less frequent visitor, like me, it's just plain hard to find help pages, or search the forum for information. It's a puzzle, basically, not an intuitive user interface.
When I look at the .org site, on my PC in Firefox, I see a large empty space to the right of the "Search for sheet music" main search box (in faint grey lettering that's easy to miss), which could easily contain a "Search for help or support" search box. Or, the main search box could have a drop down list that lets me select either sheet music, help or forum, for example.
In reply to I agree with what G-Sun said… by AndyHornBlower
And the bar below says "Download Support Contribute Acivity (Magnifier glass)" and both, Support and Activity lead to Forum, the Magnifier glass searches on musescore.org
In reply to And the bar below says … by Jojo-Schmitz
Thanks, but the point is, Jojo, you shouldn't be having to explain that to us - it should be self evident, to anyone trying to use the site, even for the first time.
If you have to explain it, it's too obscure. That was the point of this thread. Make it clear, and it's better for everyone - both for MuseScore (more users, less time having to explain what to do) and for the users, or prospective users.
I've been here many times, and I still have trouble finding my way around, and still end up accdidentally searching the sheet music, instead of finding support or help information.
I wasn't asking for myself though - I was trying to point out what's wrong with this situation. For everyone's benefit, not just mine, it needs improving. I went on to suggest improvements.
In reply to Thanks, but the point is,… by AndyHornBlower
Well, I don't see it not being very obvious, to me it is self evident.
But this may well be a case of 'professional blindness', just being used to how things work and look too much and for too long ;-)
In reply to Well, I don't see it not… by Jojo-Schmitz
I expect so, yes - you're part of it all, and very familiar with how it all works. For people who are new to it, or don't have a close ongoing relationship with it, it's anything but clear.
I've worked as a programmer, and a website developer, and used computers in some form or another for four decades. If it confuses me, it could just be that my brain is wearing out (it is), but more likely, it's just plain confusing.
As the saying goes, "It's easy when you know how" - not so easy otherwise though.
In reply to Thanks, but the point is,… by AndyHornBlower
Andy speaks my mind precisely.
Thanks!
(and btw, I too have a background in web-design, and that's maybe why I started this thread)
In reply to Andy speaks my mind… by G-Sun
The bottom banner of this page shows that the Forum is listed under Software. Would it make more sense for it to be listed under Community? Just curious.
Also, I teach Human Factors at the college level. This site is as easy as any of them providing it matches our schemata. That means the site must be at least similar to a very large extent as most sites we view on a daily basis. When developers wander too far off those standard design parameters, things get confusing. For example, as I write this, I notice that in order to post my thoughts, the command button reads Save. I've seen that before but the VAST majority of developers label that button as Post. That deviation violates my existing schemata.
Don't even get me started on Facebook or LinkedIn. Compared to them, this site is a dream!
In reply to The bottom banner of this… by Lee Batchelor
Well, the forum is about the software.
In reply to Well, the forum is about the… by Jojo-Schmitz
POST vs. SAVE is a good point though
In reply to Well, the forum is about the… by Jojo-Schmitz
Close enough, Jo-jo :).
I would say if you go first to musescore.org, finding the forum is dead simple - the menu at the top (first place most people would look) has an item "Support", and under that "Forum". Hard to not find if you think to go to musescore.org. The problem to me is how to get here if you make the mistake of starting out on musescore.com.
In reply to I would say if you go first… by Marc Sabatella
Personally, I don't see the logic behind having two sites .org and .com??? Doesn't that mean Jo-Jo must pay for two domain names? One site would suffice if the menu system was laid out in a clear and concise manner. I (now) know that one site is the free stuff and the other is the commercial revenue generating part. That makes perfect sense, but for me both business models could easily have been presented under one site name.
Meanwhile, I'm SO grateful for this wonderful software! It has made my playing tasks much easier. Thanks for that!!
In reply to Personally, I don't see the… by Lee Batchelor
FWIW, I am not convinced about the logic either, but I guess it made sense at one time. It could certainly be worth re-evaluating as much has changed since this was first set up. For the record, though, domain names are super cheap, and it would probably be worth paying for both names anyhow but have them point to the same place.
Oh, and I doubt JoJo is the one paying for this :-)
In reply to FWIW, I am not convinced… by Marc Sabatella
Good points, Marc...and yes, sorry I used the wrong name :).
In reply to Personally, I don't see the… by Lee Batchelor
I'm not paying for those, just trying to explain the difference between .org (non-profit) and .com (commercial)
When I'm down in a forum-topic,
forum-search is scrolled out of view,
but search for sheet-music stays available and on top.
This is also opposite of how it should be.
Thanks G-Sun and everyone else joining this conversation. I concur that improvements are needed on the navigation experience to and on musescore.org. I'm trying to come up with a solution.
On the topic of the domain name: it shouldn't be a point of discussion actually if the navigation would work without confusion.
In reply to Thanks G-Sun and everyone… by Thomas
Thanks Thomas.
Probably the biggest source of confusion is musescore.org offering a big search field in its header which searches on musescore.com.
I know its placeholder says "search for sheet music", but that's by far the most big and obvious search field on MuseScore.org, so its quite surprising that it searches on musescore.com.
In reply to Thanks Thomas… by frfancha
Hi Thomas,
If I may suggest, 2 separate search fields on each site, labeled and explained as to which type of items will be searched (compositions, etc. (.com) and software related (.org)).
In reply to Hi Thomas,… by xavierjazz
There are 3 things to search for:
1) Forum
2) Handbook
3) Sheet music
I would like a detailed option to choose between 1 and 2 (and/or)
3 is a totally different thing to me, and would be adequately served if putting it where forum-search is today, on the relevant site/pages.
In reply to There are 3 things to search… by G-Sun
Hi G-Sun, just so you know, you can already drill down into the search results via the facet filter at the right.
Hi G-Sun et all,
I finally got back to this issue and implemented a first step towards an improved search/menu for musescore.org. As a start, search was removed from the menu and moved to the top header of the site, replacing the Search for sheet music field. This should remove possible confusing.
In a next step, I'll be adding the possibility to search directly into the handbook, forum, issue tracker, ... It's already possible for each though, but you need to either use the search facet system, either navigate your way to the issue tracker etc.
I'm interested though in some feedback already.
In reply to Hi G-Sun et all,… by Thomas
Thank you Thomas!
This is better as relevant search is now in top header.
- For this search. What's included/excluded?
(Awaiting next step here)
- There is still some confusion, as musescore.com has the same header with same looking search, but different scope
- Where is the search faset system?
In reply to Thank you Thomas!… by G-Sun
For the faceted search, check out the image I provided at https://musescore.org/en/node/273229#comment-846684
In reply to For the faceted search,… by Thomas
Ah, sorry, I didn't catch that before now. Very handy indeed :)
In reply to For the faceted search,… by Thomas
Or
?
In reply to Hi G-Sun et all,… by Thomas
Hi Thomas,
Was your change reverted?
I'm definitively on musescore.org and the big search in the header still is "Search for sheet music" and not "Search for help"
Fred
In reply to Hi Thomas,… by frfancha
Then you must be seeing something different from what I see.
In reply to Then you must be seeing… by Jojo-Schmitz
See attached
![Capture.JPG]( "Capture.JPG")
print screen
In reply to See attached [inline… by frfancha
I see the same as frfancha.
There was a new search, for a short while, but I think only on one site - either .org or .com; I forget. It then reverted to the sheet music search. I assumed that had been deliberate.
I now see the sheet music search on both versions of the site, and still have to figure out how to search for anything else. Maybe I ought to remember how, but the fact is I don't, and anyone who's new to the site will have the same struggle, at least the first time.
FWIW, I come here to search the forum and help pages much more often than I ever search for sheet music. I tend to get more sheet music by googling for MIDI files, then importing and editing them until it gives up. The point being; I'd personally prefer the default to be to search for help, bug reports, workarounds and so on.
In reply to See attached [inline… by frfancha
I see
![Screenshot_20180819-164042.png]( "Screenshot_20180819-164042.png")
On my mobile
In reply to I see [inline:Screenshot… by Jojo-Schmitz
That's mobile...
And indeed on mobile I have just checked now, same as Jojo.
Not on PC though...
Strange idea from the designers to change the search from musescore.org, searching the site itself on mobile and another site from PC
In reply to That's mobile… by frfancha
I also see "Search for sheet music" on the top of the MuseScore.org site on my PC. For a while it said "Search for help."
In reply to Hi Thomas,… by frfancha
Hi frfrancha, the change was reverted indeed. We noticed too many searches for sheet music on MuseScore.org.
I'm brewing on a new strategy which is to keep the top header of .org and .com exactly the same.
More on this later.
In reply to Hi frfrancha, the change was… by Thomas
Hi Thomas,
The original problem was, and still is, that musescore.com and musescore.org are difficult to distinguish.
I can't see how aligning the headers will help to avoid the confusion!
Unless you go further and fully merge the sites, which would also be a possibility?
Fred
In reply to Hi Thomas,… by frfancha
I dob't see why the ability to distinguish musescore.com and musescore.org is a problem in itself. It's only a problem if this somehow makes it difficult to do - or figure out how to do - something. And this was/is indeed the case. It seems to me that even without a complete merge of the sites, simply merging the headers solves the actual problem quite nicely.
In reply to I dob't see why the ability… by Marc Sabatella
Headers are only part of the possibilities of the sites.
To do what you need to do and is not immediately offered by the header, you need to be on the correct site.
So same headers is just adding to the confusion.
In reply to Headers are only part of the… by frfancha
With old age I always repeat the same things... Have MsS.com in green?
In reply to Headers are only part of the… by frfancha
I don't understand. Can you give a specific example of something that would've harder to find/do if the headers were merged? I can list about a dozen things that become easier - basically everything in the merged headers that now would then be reachable in the same way from either site.
In reply to I don't understand. Can you… by Marc Sabatella
I will try to find the previous conversation where I was trying to expose my idea, but it is not easy.
Just an idea, a little trivial...
edit:
https://musescore.org/sites/musescore.org/files/2018-08/18080302.png
https://musescore.org/en/node/274883#comment-846988
In reply to I don't understand. Can you… by Marc Sabatella
Well, a pretty basic example of what I do every time I come on musescore.org is click on "Activity" "Recent post".
Which is not in the header.
So if musescore.org and musescore.com headers are merged and site become hard to distinguish, finding "Activity" "Recent post" will be more complex when you get on musescore.com be accident.
Now you will say: how can you come to musescore.com instead of musescore.org by accident after several years?
Well, of course it doesn't happen, but the subject of this thread is exactly that: when you know it, you know it, but when you don't, you are lost if google brings you on musescore.com instead of musescore.org.
In reply to Well, a pretty basic example… by frfancha
But how does this get worse if the headers are merged? You said it would be "just adding to the confusion".
To me it's doesn't change that particular use case at all, but does improve the search use case. Also, what if merging the headers also meant adding those menu items, so you could access forums or Handbook from either site in the same way? No idea if this is something Thomas has in mind, but it is an example of how a well-designed common header could completely solve the problem without the need to merge sites.
In reply to But how does this get worse… by Marc Sabatella
eg.
?
In reply to Hi Thomas,… by frfancha
Hi Fred,
The sites are not meant to be distinguishable, apart from their url and content (or purpose).
There is no plan to merge the sites.
What is the plan however, is to improve the navigation. Tbc.
In reply to Hi Fred,… by Thomas
not meant to be distinguishable, apart from their url and content (or purpose)
but a 'dedicated' submenu?
In reply to Hi Fred,… by Thomas
<< The sites are not meant to be distinguishable >>
So you want to create confusion? Strange decision.
In reply to << The sites are not meant… by frfancha
There is no inherent reason that one should need to know the specific domain of any given page on a web site in order to navigate it effectively. In principle, every single page of a site could have a different domain and things would be fine as long as the navigation is clear/consistent. So if it makes sense for internal reasons to have certain pages on .org and others on .com, this should in no way whatsoever cause anyone the slightest confusion, as long as the navigation is clear.
In reply to Hi frfrancha, the change was… by Thomas
Thanks for looking at these matters!
I see 2 good solutions:
1 Merging headers. All relevant (major) subjects are reachable/ searchable from main header (or right col)
2 Clear graphical differentiation of the 2 sites. Eg. One in blue, the other in red
Merging would probably be best, yes :)
In reply to Thanks for looking at these… by G-Sun
For the repository of ideas...
Edit: if the idea is not clear: left search on .org/right search on .com
In reply to Thanks for looking at these… by G-Sun
I agree. One site to rule them all, would definitely be best. There's nothing wrong with using two different domains for the same site though (the .org and .com, in this case).
Failing that, it should at least be clearer which site we're currently looking at. You can't expect people to refer to the address bar to work it out. If they look the same, people are going to continue to be confused about which one they're looking at.
Also, the distinction between the two sites is only important to people involved with the organisation. Users are not going to see it that way - they'll see it all as "the Musescore website" and they're just going to be confused by the fact that sometimes the menus do one thing, sometimes they do another; sometimes they know how to get to a page or section they want but sometimes it just doesn't seem to be there.
People rarely type in a full website address any more - they use a bookmark, or start typing then accept a suggested completion, or go via a search engine for no good reason. It should probably be assumed that they arrive at the .com or the .org with equal probability, and not be assumed that they chose to arrive at one or the other deliberately.
I feel your pain. When I started to use Musescore and this forum, I always ended up on the developers forum.
I now hard bookmark the forum it as I cannot even find it easily from a google search.
It really needs to get a flat structure. All the nesting makes it very difficult to find.
Thank you for all your opinions.
I conclude there is only one main problem. How to go from MuseScore.com to MuseScore.org. this is something to be improved. Once there, the .org submemu can lead you to anything you need.
Do you want to go directly to the forum, or handbook, or anything else, there is the site footer. If that doesn't work you, bookmark the page or memorise the url so you can type it in directly in the address bar.
Did you accidentally click on some link and you ended up on any page on the site, use the browser back button and shortcut to go one step back.
In reply to Thank you for all your… by Thomas
I don't really agree with this conclusion.
How to go from MuseScore.com to MuseScore.org. is just a technically matter.
What I, and others, are addressing here is the design-concept. Musescore-devs see the site as two different sites, linked, but with different content. The new user don't see this distinction, and is confused by different url but same layout.
So, either, the header has to represent both, giving clear navigation to relevant content,
or it needs to be distinct different, with different colors etc.
And, navigating via the footer is not good enough for main subjects. From a navigation-viewpoint, everything below first view is non-existent.
In reply to I don't really agree with… by G-Sun
"What I, and others, are addressing here is the design-concept. Musescore-devs see the site as two different sites, linked, but with different content. The new user don't see this distinction, and is confused by different url but same layout."
Exactly !
There should be one default identical start page on both sites as the welcome page asking the user whether they want to go to the development or the user forum sites.
It is confusing as hell as-is and I have been shouted off the developer site a few times. A new user has no clue heshe is on the developer site as no other forum comes up.
Just make one welcome page for both the .com and .org sites and let the visitor be able to direct to either developer/commercial/non-commercial user groups or whatever other facilities available.
I mean it is just basic good organization.
In reply to "What I, and others, are… by retnev
To clarify something: there is no such thing as a "developer site", not for MuseScore, anyhow. The two different domains that make up the MuseScore site are musescore.com (this is where people can share scores) and musescore.org (this is where people can download, learn about, and discuss the software itself). There is no "developer site" for you to be "shouted off". Perhaps you mean you tried asking a support question on the issue tracker rather than on the support forum? Both are part of musescore.org, and the navigation there is very straightforward - both have the same exact menu structure, with very clear links. What is being talked about here is not any sort of confusion between issue tacker and support forum (both on musescore.org), but between musescore.org and msuescore.com, between which the navigation is indeed not as clear.
In reply to To clarify something: there… by Marc Sabatella
If you read my mail, that was an example of what a homepage should look like to clear up all the confusion which I am not the only one experiencing.
The examples of developer site etc are just examples...fill in what you like ! as I mentioned.
As for always landing on the issue tracker which I usually mistake for the forum..
The main reason for always landing on the issue tracker is that the User Forum is truly "So darn hard to find".
In fact I found it after it was pointed out to me by a post at the shoutdowns.
I then hard bookmarked it and still battle to find the user forum from a google search or even worse, just forget about finding it in your account if you are a new user.
It is so easy to fix and it will be for the better to have one identical homepage on both .com and .org clearly directing the user to the content of the two sites.
Believe me it IS confusing.
In reply to If you read my mail, that… by retnev
Again, I'm not disagreeing that there is room for improvement. I am just trying to understand the perceived problem better, and also to help clear up some of your confusion so you can find things easier in the mean time.
To be clear: assuming you are on musescore.org, the simple and direct way to the forums is to click the Support menu at top of page, then Forums. The simple and direct way to the issue tracker is Support / Issue Tracker. Not sure what you were doing that caused your to keep finding the issue tracker when you were looking for the forum. Understanding where you went wrong would help in trying to address the issue. What I can see is that neither the forum nor the issue the tracker is particularly easy to find from musescore.com, and to me that is the main problem. If you land on musescore.com for whatever reason, it's hard to get to anything on musescore.org - the software to download, the Handbook to learn from, the forums to discuss, the issue tracker to report problems, etc.
Once you're over here on musescore.org, though, it seems pretty pretty straightforward to me. Well, except for the converse problem that has also been discussed here - that the search and dashboard end up presenting only musescore.com content when they could be including musescore.org as well (eg, a list of subscribed forum topics in dashboard).
In reply to Again, I'm not disagreeing… by Marc Sabatella
Marc, you are right there is no dealbreaking problems once you get to musescore.org
One problem is the user forum and the bug tracker confusion. You see I had about three posts in the bugtracker that was supposed to be on the userforum and kept on landing there as it was the only forum I could find being new to Musescore.
That was because of this .org .com chaos with exactly the same structure and logins.
Just consider creating a simple redirect page for both .com and .org that leads the user to either site and the problem will disappear (takes about 2 minutes to do with flat html.
No new user will expect his login to be for .org and .com. It creates lots of unnecessary confusion and shouting.
In reply to Marc, you are right there is… by retnev
Hmm, I definitely disagree with you about the login. Once upon a time we had two different logins for .com and .org and it was universally condemned by pretty much all users of both sites. No one who goes to the trouble of creating a .com account wants to create a second account for .org or vice versa. So this much was thankfully changed years ago.
A redirect page could help slightly with those few visitors who enter through the main page, but that doesn't help once they reach .com and can't find their way over to .org. Nor does it help the people who land on pages other than the main page due to searches, links from elsewhere, etc. In other words, it's what happens once you are past the main page that is the bigger problem. And that's what having a consistent set of headers potentially solves.
As for forum vs issue tracker, to me that's entirely separate. If you can remember exactly how you ended up on the issue tracker - which page you were on previously, what you were looking for, what you clicked - that could help me understand. Right now it isn't clear I don't see how you were able to find the issue tracker but not the forum, since both are equally prominent. Neither is accessible from musescore.com, and both are under the Support menu on musescore.org. there is not a single plce on either site that I can think of from which you can get to the issue tracker more easily than the forum.
The real problem with the issue tracker to me is not about navigation but about naming. People see the word "issue tracker" and think, "yeah, I've got an issue: I can't figure out how to do X" so they go there and ask. If it were actually called "bug tracker", that would probably cut down hugely on the number of erroneous support questions posts there. At some point not too long ago a disclaimer was added so that as soon as you try to add a new issue, it says "For support requests or potential bug reports, please post in the forum" (with link of course), but to me it still isn't prominent or clear enough.
In reply to Marc, you are right there is… by retnev
Granted, but if you are involved with musescore remember you view the site from a privileged position and what is obvious to you isn't remotely obvious to a first time user. It is a weird setup.
The single entry welcome page (index.html) on both sites will really help a lot. Whenever you dont find something, what do you and a new user do ?, go to the homepage. Everyone does that and therefore it WILL help.
That will solve it.
In reply to If you read my mail, that… by retnev
Add that there's a discussion group as well :)
In reply to Add that there's a… by G-Sun
The Forum is the biggest activity outside of downloading Musescore itself. While the Forum is a "Support" item, it's importance is large enough to earn a heading command button all by itself. As a Web developer and technical writer, believe me when I say, users hate drilling down through menus - even by just one level.
And yes, any Forum is classified as a Support item, but when people come looking for the Forum it must not be buried as a sub-heading. It needs its own command button. The other Support items are fine.
Another hint is, freeze the banner in which the topics, "Download, Forum, Support..." reside. Reason: usability is reduced when the page is so long that it forces users to scroll to the top or hunt for their Home button.
In reply to The Forum is the single… by Lee Batchelor
For new users, these are the important ones:
1) Download
2) Handbook/documentation
3) Forum
then, any thing else
That goes for both .org and .com
In reply to For new users, these are the… by G-Sun
I think part of the problem is that different people really do have different needs here. While everyone participating on this discussion is obviously a forum user - and thus to us the forum seems especially important, I suspect the stats tell a different story. Probably only a very small percentage of visitors to these sites ever visit the forums. Not because they are hard to find, but simply because many are coming here for other things entirely. I could be wrong, but I believe the stats say that most people are coming to these sites for the sheet music on musescore.com and the associated discussion in the groups there. I know from experience talking to hundreds of people at trade shows and so forth that there are a lot of people who browse the sheet music online or download it for their own use but aren't MuseScore users themselves. So trying to design website experience that works equally well for all the different sorts of things people might be interested in is definitely a challenge, and it's important for all of us not to assume our own needs and experiences are representative. Our very presence on these forums already marks each of us as a minority in this respect :-)
In reply to I think part of the problem… by Marc Sabatella
That's a valuable consideration,
and there might be sides of Musescore that I'm not aware of.
Stats are important, but should not be the only measure of judgment.
Experienced users, are as the name says, experienced,
and will find what they seek no matter web-site structure.
New visitors on the other hand, might give a lower volume,
but are much more important when organizing menus and links.
Now, of course, as you say, they might seek sheet-music,
so of course, that should be on the easy-to-fin list.
In reply to I think part of the problem… by Marc Sabatella
Possibly the forum would be used more if it wasn't so hard to find?
Promoting the most popular sections is a bit like Amazon's policy of sorting reviews by "Most helpful", which gives a slanted view because people obviously only mark reviews they're read as helpful, and they typically only read a few of them, so they only read the ones already marked as most helpful.
Also, does MuseScore really care what people who don't even use the software want from the site? If finding the sheet music they want eventually leads to them installing MuseScore, I can see the point, but if a lot of them never do, why would their preferences be important?
I assume the stats don't let you identify which groups / types of visitors they're collecting stats about.
There's a famous graph which shows a very convincing correlation between the number of radio licenses issued (it's an old graph) and the number of admissions to psychiatric wards. The figures it's based on are apparently correct, and it shows a nice straight line. I leave you to draw your own conclusions, as I polish my tin foil hat.
In reply to Possibly the forum would be… by AndyHornBlower
No doubt the forum would be used more if easier to find, and I definitely support changes to make that the case. Hard to quantify that, of course. But still, based on the known use cases, it does still seem that a large percentage of users would not generally be interested in the forums even if a prominent link to the forums were provided on musescore.com. Just as we know that a number of forum users really don't care much about searching for sheet music, and they still don't care about it even though there is a very prominent sheet music search box here on musescore.org.
As for why anyone should care about the preferences of people who are not MuseScore users, I would say, site visitors are site visitors. Much of the content on musescore.com is of interest and use to anyone, not just people who have MuseScore installed, so it's really a completely legitimate / supported / intended / valuable (in all senses of the word) use of the site to just browse for scores.
On the other hand, it does often happen that I will talk to someone who says "yeah, I use the MuseScore site all the time, downloading music to listen to or print out and play" and then I ask if they use MuseScore themselves and they tell me they weren't even aware MuseScore was software they could download - they only know the web site! So absolutely, I believe that adding better navigation from musescore.com pages to the major content areas of musescore.org would be a good thing all around.
Anyhow, my thoughts are my thoughts, I don't speak for Thomas or anyone else involved in the web site design. But I think many of us see opportunities for improvement, and they are all good ideas even if they come from different perspectives. So it is important to work toward understanding all of these' concerns.
In reply to If you read my mail, that… by retnev
@retnev How is the forum hard to find if you found the issue tracker? When you want to create a new issue, literally the first thing you see, is this brown box asking you to please father sue the forum for support requests or discussing possible bug reports, with a link to the forum.
In reply to Hoe is the forum hard to… by Louis Cloete
@louis Cloete "Hoe is the forum hard to find if you found the issue tracker? When you want to create a new issue, literally the first thing you see, is this brown box asking you to please father sue the forum for support requests or discussing possible big reports, with a link to the forum."
Sheesh your email is almost as difficult to read than finding the user forum.
Suing the the forum might be a good idea ..lol!~
In reply to "Hoe is the forum hard to… by retnev
I'll blame my phone's autocorrect. And my point still stands, regardless. You are given info on when to rather use the forum, along with a link to the forum, whenever you try to create a new issue. Even if the forum is hard to find from scratch, it is one click away from the issue tracker, which you obviously have no problem in finding. If you can't bother to read the info right on top of the page, you should'nt be surprised if you are told that same info in a less than cordial tone.
I do agree that there is a problem. I just also think a big part of the problem is the modern person's inexplicable urge not to read everything, but to skim until it seems they have found what they want. Part of the solution may be to reorder the site to make it more difficult for lazy readers to miss the important info.
In reply to I'll blame my phone's… by Louis Cloete
Let the man who's read all the License Agreements and all documentation for all apps and software he has used throw the first stone..
:)
On a side-note: Personally I have ME/CFS. And sometimes that makes it very hard for me to concentrate or to take in anything that's communicated through the left mind language (typical words).
In reply to I'll blame my phone's… by Louis Cloete
Louis, you are 100 percent correct. People tend to read books from cover to cover. This "linear" approach is embedded in our brains from our school days. It's part of our navigation scheme. With websites and online material we tend to skim and scan in a non-linear fashion. It's up to the website developer to acknowledge this fact in the very early design stage. Most developers don't know about this very important rule. Instead, a lot of developers apply their own personal navigation schemes to a website, which often results in mass confusion - all because we don't think like him or her. Don't even get me started on LinkedIn or Facebook!
I think this site is one of the nicer ones I've seen. The graphics and colors are appealing, and it doesn't have a lot of clutter that SO many developers think we need. It only needs a slight change in the navigation scheme.
In reply to Louis, you are 100 percent… by Lee Batchelor
Hi all.
I believe that sooner or later, thanks to community contributions or conversations like this, some changes will be considered.
Rome was not built in a day ;-)
I don't know which step this topic occupies in the to-do list (maybe not very high) but I have faith in the team. We can freely express our opinions and provide some input (preferably peacefully) to those who will then have to take on the hard work.
That's how it works, right?
Regards.
In reply to Hi all… by Shoichi
<< Rome was not built in a day >>
Well 3 months after the original post of this topic, the fix header of musescore.org (at least on PC) still contains a unique search box searching on musescore.com
:-(
In reply to << Rome was not built in a… by frfancha
Not still, but again. As Thomas wrote further up the change got reverted
I'll just have to add that the other day I was looking for some Musescore sheetmusic,
and it was hard to find the way the other way -from the software to the sheetmusic.
In reply to I'll just have to add that… by G-Sun
It shouldn't be... Just search for sheet music in the search bar on top. Maybe you just missed it?
Me too. I've been using musescore since version 2, and with the release of version 4, it still remains the most unintuitive program I've ever used. I swear the developers are from Jupiter.
In reply to Me too. I've been using… by Gliese667Cc
Sorry to hear you’re having trouble! Music notation is complex, and software to work with it necessarily so as well, but we always strive to make it as easy to use as possible. It if you’re having trouble figuring anything out, just start a new thread and ask! Be sure, of course, to also take advantage of the excellent documentation available, including the free online Handbook.
I didn't read through all the comments on this 5 year old thread, but of the ones I did, I didn't see where anyone suggest using custom shortcuts. If you are confused and frequently end up nyt the wrong site or page, you can easily create a shortcut that will go directly to the specific URL, such as the forum. The shortcut can also be custom named to something very obvious.