Copyright

• Mar 7, 2017 - 18:24

Hello everyone,

I'm curious...is it necessary and do you recommend having my music copyrighted prior to making it public on musescore?

Thank you in advance.


Comments

In reply to by Shoichi

They say sharing is caring so why not. One last question...I was under the impression all the works submitted in Musescore are the composer's original work. I m new to this and I didn't think one could input another person's work. How is this possible?

In reply to by warrior2068

If a work is under copyright then it is illegal to put their music on any website without the copyright holder's permission.

Much of the classical music found on this site is no longer under copyright. The longest copyright I know of is 90 years after the composer's death, but none of us will probably be around to see those copyrights run out. Everything copyright prior to 1923 is no longer under copyright in the US, but many countries had it based on 70 years after the composer's death, so in the EU the same work may be under copyright still. It gets very complicated so I'll stop there.

Anything that is no longer under copyright is now considered public domain. Anyone can do anything with it they please. No one is entitled to any royalties gained by it use. So everything J.S. Bach wrote is now in the public domain. All of those Star Wars themes, for example, (except the proposed Episode 9 themes) are probably under copyright and their owner could contact the MuseScore people and tell them to remove them and they would most likely comply unless there is some issue I am not aware of.

"Having music copyrighted" isn't really a thing. It was until the 1980's or so, but the way copyright law works in virtually all countries, you own the copyright in your music the moment you write it down (or record it, or otherwise fix it in tangible form, to use the language from US law). You are encouraged to include a copyright message on your music if you wish your ownership of the copyright to be made explicit. But you don't need to do anything else.

In some countries, there is an optional "registration" of your copyright you can do if you like, that can provide some additional benefits in certain cases. Kind of like sending in the registration / warranty card on that new TV you just bought., You own the TV, the warranty is good regardless of whether you send the card in, but some companies may offer additional benefits if you send it in. Feel free to consult a lawyer for your particular country to see if the additional benefits seem worthwhile to you or not. But again, you own the copyright already.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Marc,

This whole copyright business it's more complicated and serious than I thought. So if I understand you Correctly just uploading my music in Musescore or youtube implies I am the owner (which I am) and having the song formally copyrighted is not necessary. I am getting this right or I m making more complicated then it should be. Is that how it woks if in the U.S?

I just commented on your song "Different Worlds." Nicely done!

In reply to by warrior2068

I'm not a lawyer, but I have produced original works. From these posts, I perceive that as soon as you finish penning an original score, you are the sole owner and if anyone else wants to use the score, they must get you to sign off. Perhaps the trick is, you must be able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that you penned the original. If you can, then you're in the driver's seat. Just my two cents worth.

In reply to by Lee Batchelor

I appreciate it and they are indeed my original work. I just thought of an alternative to actual copyright. What do you think about having the work Notorize and be saved for future reference? After notorizibg them I will I will make them public to get everyone's candid feedback. Heads up, I don't know how to play any instrument. That is why I like Musescore. It allows me to express and get out the tunes that I have in my head.

In reply to by warrior2068

Again, if you want the full story in complete accuracy for your particular country, best to consult a lawyer, or at least ask in a legal forum. But yes, the short version for virtually all countries is, if you produce a work and enter it into MuseScore, you already *own* the copyright for it. If you upload it, you have now "published" it. There simply is no such thing as "copyrighting" a work. Copyright is a noun - it is a thing you own the moment you set your work down on paper or the equivalent. You can choose to *register* your copyright, but that is optional - you already own it.

And thanks for the kind words on "Different Worlds", but don't be share about sharing your own music!

I'm no expert. A lot of people put their stuff out without the formalities of copyright. Their argument is that they have the original document and can show that in a copyright claim. I think that is not the best option because it puts you, the copyright holder, on the defensive.

For example, if someone else were to copyright a piece that you wrote and put on the Internet, YOU would have to prove that you owned the copyright, which means that YOU would have to take an action, hire lawyers and trouble yourself with proving that you owned the work. You would probably win if you had the original proof of publication on this site or some other like youtube. However, if you register your copyright with the Copyright Office, then you will probably never have to do anything but sit back in you armchair and collect royalties. If someone else were to say "Hey I wrote your songs" then THEY would have to act, hire lawyers, go to court and THEY would have to prove that they owned your works.

See the difference? In either case, you would probably win in court with documentation of your publication dates. But why not spend the 30 bucks and copyright a whole batch of songs and then do what you want with your works free of a troubled mind? Let THEM worry about fighting it out in court.

There is one technique that has been used in Canada. You finish the score, record it (doesn't have to be studio grade), place both the sheet music and recording in a sealed envelope, and then send it to yourself by registered mail, which has a date and time stamp. When it arrives, you sign for it and immediately place it in a safe deposit box along with the mail receipt, unopened.

When the time comes that you feel your work has been "stolen" you schedule a meeting with a court judge. He or she opens the envelope and verifies that it is indeed your work. It is now a court record that "Song A" was written by you on a certain date.

Likely, some clever lawyer has found a skate around for that method, however, it has been used successfully in the past. Better than doing nothing, especially if your song goes viral.

Correct me if I'm wrong - wasn't "White Christmas" written by Irving Berlin in about 10 minutes? He sang it to Bing Crosby from a phone booth, who initially didn't like it and refused to record it. It is the number one selling Christmas tune of all time and still resides in the Crosby estate. What if it had never been copyrighted :)? Again, I'm not sure of this story's facts but it is what I heard.

In reply to by Lee Batchelor

Musicians are notorious for "borrowing" (stealing) from eachother. The method that Lee proposes would probably work. Just note that in Lee's version of events YOU have to schedule with a court. In the better version, THEY have to schedule meetings, begin actions and pay for lawyers.
In the meantime, the thief is collecting royalties and has plenty of money to beat you in a suit. And you have no money to even begin an action.

Don't underestimate how very easy it is to steal music. All of the greats have gotten to the top doing that very thing. How many Chuck Berry riffs were used to make Beatles songs? How many times did Dylan hear something in a coffeehouse and got the copyright for it (With God on our Side?)

Very little of a song is qualified and protected by copyright. You can not copyright the title, the rhythm, or the chord progression. That leaves you with the melody and the lyrics (and a shrewd lawyer will find little holes in your melody and lyrics.) Why be on the defense by not paying a small fee and copyrighting a whole folder of songs? You can put ten or twenty songs in a folder and send into the office in 30 minutes. Alot faster than Irving Berlin could do it.

Double check this: You can just send in audio recordings. Scores help, but actualy an audio recording is more accurate. Copyright law is a huge field of inquiry. It's the domain of qualified publishers and lawyers.

I'm going to change what I said above. It is more than likely that such methods as getting verification other than through the Copyright Office would fail or be so time consuming and difficult and expensive as to make it not worth the time, energy and inconvenience to pursue. So, though I said that the method suggested would probably work, I now realized that we greatly discount the trouble a copyright case can be. Especially when the other side is holding proof of registration.

The question of copyright is an ongoing discussion here. I noticed that it came up in the first project thread I posted here (the Schoenberg transcription.) I am wondering how qualified people are to speak about copyright issues? Has anyone here ever filed a copyright? It would be useful to know who are the people who have knowledge of these matters, because I notice that all too often, up pops somebody who imagines that a court case would proceed all too simplistically.

It seems to me that the common notions about copyright claims and court decisions are purely imaginary. That you can make an appointment with a court judge and come in with a time stamped envelope containing your material and that this will magically clear up your copyright claim. Such imagined reasoning is preposterous. We need to realize that a court proceeding to reclaim stolen property is likely to a horrendous nightmare. Suppose that someone stole your copyright. The first and last thing that a judge is going to ask is who owns the copyright. If you do not have the copyright then I can't imagine a judge transferring the ownership back to you. The reasoning of most judges (not all) would probably be "If you had composed this work, you would have registered it." Don't expect any sympathy.

The idea of doing anything other than properly filing your work with the Copyright Office is inviting trouble. I know someone who sells their music on CD and says they would go to court with the CD and that would prove that they had written it before the registration date of any copyright. This is surely doubtful. It is like buying furniture for your apartment and keeping the receipts and then reasoning that you can now leave your apartment door unlocked because if your furniture gets stolen you can simply make an appointment with the judge and he or she will return your furniture to you.

These lines of reasoning are poor. Putting your work into an envelope is a good idea, and putting a stamp on it is good to, and addressing the envelope is a good idea, but make that address to the U.S. Copyright Office.

People who recommend other methods don't seem to understand that if a case should ever be called to court the person who stole your songs is likely to have more money than you and they will be the plaintiff in the case. The burden will be upon you to prove that you owned the furniture in your apartment before it was stolen. If you have the copyright then the burden will be upon the other side. And I am talking BURDEN because if you live in Texas and the plaintiff lives in New York, you will have to travel or communicate long distance with that court. The burden will be upon you and it can be a nightmare to navigate the federal court system and the Copyright system. You could be bogged down in proceedings for years or even decades.

If you are a novice to copyright and are seriously thinking of copyrighting, I recommend that you subscribe to a news feed on "copyright" and follow some of the classic copyright cases to learn what can happen. You should be aware of Paul McCartney's loss of his copyright in 1969, and again to Michael Jackson in the 1980's (a story that is current again as McCartney is once again attempting to reclaim his songs) Then there are the periodic cases involving individual songs. Stairway to Heaven was just recently challenged last year.

You should study the catalogs of your favorite artists and learn how much is stolen when an artist is beginning. Dylan is classic. Not only did he steal the music for God on our Side, Hard Times in New York Town was derived from another song called Penny's Farm. This Land by Woody Guthrie was derived from a song by the Carter Family - When the World's on Fire. John Lennon lost the copyright to Come Together because he lifted the one line about "here come old flattop" from a Chuck Berry song - You Can't Catch Me. The two songs are as different as night and day and he lost to Chuck. George Harrison was sued for a violation when he wrote song called "My Sweet Lord" and the melody is exactly like "He's So Fine" by the Chiffons. Led Zeppelin stole Killing Floor from Howlin' Wolf. Most of their first two albums contain about 50% ripoffs. (That's a typical ratio in the early catalogs of the more prolific and renouned artist) Killing Floor was Wolf's sawn song and he eventually got them to settle up for a cool million dollars. The ripoff was so obvious. And I am talking about artists who have international recognision for their "originality!" A lot of questions arise. How did Lennon get away with using the trademark name "Coca Cola" in Come Together. Why is Come Together still listed as a Lennon/McCartney song?

You should also study music theory so that you are transcribing your music correctly. Music publishers and publishing lawyers can easily prove that your song does not have an original melody or words. Imagine a blank music staff and put your chords on the bass clef. If you write your melody one note to each chord upon the treble clef, a lawyer could claim that your melody is part of the chord progression and therefore is not a melody. A melody implies a distinct rhythm apart from the harmony. How many people write a chord progression and just sing the top voice of the chords? Is that a melody? The Ramones come to mind. They actually did have melodies written above very straignt chord progressions.

A chord progression is not covered by copyright. In music theory we learn about how indistinct the lines are between melody, harmony and rhyhm. You should know these things. What is a melody in the digital age? if you are singing all of your melody with a recorded intonation of A440, what happens when I play you melody on a synth or a piano and then warp the intonation - so that the perfect fifth is only a few cents off? "Your honor, my client is singing the note A at 441 hertz!" Digital leaves plenty of wiggle room to wiggle in and out of copyrights.

If you can not copyright a title, chord progression or rhythm - what do rap and hip hop artists actually compose and copyright?

The short of it is this - copyright means filling out those pertinent applications and getting them into the office. You can open an online account as easily as opening a YouTube account. You can upload your songs as easily to the Copyright Office as you can to YouTube. You can mail an application to the Copyright office as easily as you can mail your tape to yourself. The fees are remarkably low. You can accumulate a folder of finished ideas and send them all in together with one small fee. Do this periodically, every year or few months or few weeks. Every time you pay a fee, they give you something like 24 or 48 hours to upload. A lot can be uploaded in that time, if it's prepared.

Publishers don't just file these simple forms and low fees. They also work to lock up a copyright from all angles as more and more artists reference their artists works. So you can start out with filing an Authorship copyright. After you get to going, you may want to file two forms with each batch of uploads. An Authorship copyright and a Mechanical copyright. That gives extra protection.

P.S. A few extras:
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/lists/songs-on-trial-10-landmark-musi…

Does this lyric sound familiar?
You Need Love by Willie Dixon

You've got yearnin' and I got burnin'
Baby you look so sweet and cunning
Baby way down inside, woman you need love
Woman you need love, you've got to have some love
I'm gonna give you some love, I know you need love
You just gotta have love, you make me feel so good
You make me feel all right, you're so nice, you're so nice
You're frettin', and I'm petting
A lot of good things you ain't getting
Baby, way down inside, you need love
You need to be hugged and squeezed real tight,
by the light of the moon on some summer night
You need love and kissing too,
all these things are good for you
I ain't foolin' you need schoolin'
Baby you know you need coolin'
Baby, way down inside, woman you need love

This is an infringement mainly because of three words "way down inside" and another three words "you need love" and "you need coolin'" That is the whole idea behind Whole Lotta Love and it's a ripoff. Those are also the most original lines in the song. YET, despite the many ripoffs, Led Zeppelin is thought of as one of the most original bands of all time. Go figure. Dylan too. Same things.

How can that be? They (Led Zep, Dylam, etc.) stole copyrights and when court came due, they had the cash to pay for lawyers with the expertise to navigate the Muddy Waters! OOPS!

In reply to by Joe H

I agree that mailing to yourself is not generally considered to be a valid thing to do - pretty much every lawyers, book on the subject, etc will tell you the same. And yes, I have registered copyrights for a number of works, and have other direct experience with the legalities of the matter, but no, I am not a lawyer either.

However, I do know that most respected legal sources will tell you that while mailing to yourself is not considered legally valid, they will also tell you the need to actually register your copyright is not as strong as you suggest.

For one thing, there are other methods of establishing the date at which you knew of the song, and pretty much anything you do that would have allowed someone else to hear it and use it without your authorization would probably be enough to establish you knew it then. For instance, if they learned your song by hearing it on a CD, then the publication of the CD is itself a timestamp. Or if they got it from a web site, again, there are timestamps there that can help establish that. If a court case really comes down to someone else claiming you did not in fact write the song, registration of copyright is not necessarily the only way to establish that.

But more importantly, one should keep in mind that establishing you own the copyright on your song is virtually *never* the issue in any of these famous cases. That is, the fact that George Harrison wrote "My Sweet Lord" and Ronnie Mack wrote "He's So Fine" was never in dispute. It was merely a question of how similar the two songs were. So the registration of lack thereof for either song was a non-issue. Same for the other cases you mention.

Anyhow, I'm not saying there is no value in registering your copyright. It does give you another way of establishing you knew of the song at a certain date. But to imply that this is likely to be the key element in a lawsuit is not really true. The main advantage of registration, in the US at least (other countries may differ) is that it can increase the amount of punitive fines that can be collected if an infringement occurs.

In reply to by Joe H

I would just like to reiterate (and Marc has said it too) that your statement: "copyright means filling out those pertinent applications and getting them into the office." is simply wrong. Outside the US there is no "application" you could file anyway; if copyright "means" any single thing it is "putting an appropriate copyright declaration on the work".

In reply to by Imaginatorium

Right. In particular, there can be no doubt: "copyright" means "right to copy", and under the law of virtually every country on earth, you own the copyright the moment you set your piece down on paper or in other tangible form. This is very clearly spelled out in copyright law. Registration is *not* a prerequisite for owning a copyright. It is illegal for people to use your work without your permission whether or not you register your copyright. But registration does give you a few additional rights that vary from country to country, mostly regarding the amount of damages that can be collected should it ever come down to a lawsuit.

In reply to by Jojo-Schmitz

That's the whole point. You, the creator, now have to prove that you own the copyright. The owner of a registered copyright should not have to prove that they created the work. had you created them, you would have registered them. that is the logic of the courts.

The victim is not going to make an appointment with a judge to determine that. You or the thief must file a complaint. That will cost money. The complaint is filed with the Clerk of Courts. Then the clerk talks with the judge and they schedule ten minutes for your case. Every case has it's limitations and those limitations are not set by you. The only thing they want to see is "Who has the registered copyright?" The hammer might fall without your even being allowed to present your sealed envelope. You are ordered to pay the plaintiff damages. The judge gets up and walks out of the room. Because they don't have time for it. Now you are in the appeal process. And it goes on and on. A sealed and dated envelope is not as strong as a registered copyright. The scoundrel could claim that they wrote those songs when they were 15 years old and threw away or lost all of the notebooks. No one is obligated to keep those notes after the registration. The registration is pretty tough to beat.

It just makes all of the sense in the world to register. It's dirt cheap and it's easy. You can open an account with the Copyright Office today as easily as you can register for the Musescore forum. You don't pay anything when you open your account. You only pay when you file applications. The cost is a pittance. Even if the fees are as high as $60 now, that covers the whole application. In other words, you do not pay the 35 or 60 dollars for each song, but for each application - and you can include dozens of works. So, if you have not copyrighted works because you thought it was difficult or expensive - you can register 100 works for that $60 and that comes out to be only 6 cents per song. That is much less money than the postage to mail CD's to yourself. How much does that cost? Suppose a "friend" swipes your sealed envelope off of the table while visiting?

Be wise.

You should not only register your works, but you should periodically update and strengthen your copyrights.

Jojo write: You just have to prove that, as ther remain innocent unless the opposite can get proven without doubt." Jojo - you are quoting a principle that applies to criminal law. A copyright complaint is a matter for the civil courts. You are imagining scenarios that have no reality in actual civil proceedings.

Imaginatorium commented on my last post: I would just like to reiterate (and Marc has said it too) that your statement: "copyright means filling out those pertinent applications and getting them into the office." is simply wrong. Outside the US there is no "application" you could file anyway; if copyright "means" any single thing it is "putting an appropriate copyright declaration on the work". Imaginatorium - I am talking about copyright for all practical purposes. The person who registers a work owns that work in the eyes of the law.

I'm interested in discussing copyright, but maybe we should stick to posting real cases that come up occasionally and discussing those? Rather than these imaginary scenarios. If we run across a case where someone wins their copyright back with a sealed envelope and defeats the person who has the registration, then that will settle this question.

OK. Here is an actual copyright case that was currently "settled" last year. Did anyone follow this?
http://www.spin.com/2017/03/led-zeppelins-stairway-to-heaven-copyright-…

Here is a typical case that drags on and on. The issue first arose when Stairway to Heaven was introduced to the public. Knowing Led Zep, I am inclined to believe that they did borrow or steal from Spirit, because artists who steal from greats like Howlin' Wolf and others would surely pilfer the works of lesser knowns. The conclusion as of this date is that Spirit has lost any claim to ownership or part ownership in STH.

The sum is that the creators of the work lost the benefits from their work and have been struggling to regain it for over 40 years now. Let's stick to the issues that this case covers and how it proceeded through the courts. Notice that the current appeal is based upon the proceedings of the last trial. There were close limitations placed upon the introduction of evidence. The jury was only allowed to refer to Spirit's lead sheets and not to the actual recording. This is why I say - not registering your copyrights can easily lead you into endless nightmares. Because you do not determine the limitations of the discussion as it proceeds through court. You have no idea if one particular judge will even let you submit a sealed envelope to the court.

In this particular case, Spirit had recorded their song 3 years before STH. The issue is not whether one registered later than the other. This case involved the similarities in the chord progression. A chord progression, like a rhythm or a title, is not material for copyright. The only thing you can copyright is the melody and the lyric. So I don't see where Spirit has a case. STH and the song by Spirit sound very different. Yet, I might hear that STH was partly derived from the Spirit song.

So we might want to pass by this case - unless others see copyright issues here. What I suggest is that if you have a point to make concerning copyright, look for a case study, so that we are talking about things that actually happen rather than what we imagine might happen.

Show me a case where someone regained their copyrights with a sealed envelope. You might begin your search here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poor_man's_copyright

"... a copy could be deposited with a bank or solicitor. Alternatively, a creator could send himself or herself a copy by special delivery post (which gives a clear date stamp on the envelope), leaving the envelope unopened on its return. A number of private companies operate unofficial registers, but it would be sensible to check carefully what you will be paying for before choosing this route.
It is important to note, that this does not prove that a work is original or created by you..."

What if the envelope arrives in your mailbox with a smeared or otherwise illegible time stamp? Also, a sealed envelope may be opened and resealed without any detectable signs. Therefore, a sealed envelope would not be accepted by a court. Why bother examining an envelope when the other party is holding a registered copyright?

There should be no argument here.
"There is no provision in US copyright law regarding any such type of protection. Poor man's copyright is therefore not a substitute for registration. According to section 101 of the U.S. Copyright Act of 1976 (17 U.S.C. 408), registration of a work with the Copyright Office is not a prerequisite for copyright protection.[3] Furthermore, Eric Goldman has noted that there is an absence of cases actually giving any value to the poor man's copyright."

You own your copyright from the moment you create a work. That is indisputable. Whoever registers the work assumes ownership. Possession is 9/10th of the law. If I steal your TV and you can't get it back from me, then I own it. Note that "there is an absence of cases actually giving any value to the poor man's copyright." But I can produce a multitude of instances where the courts actually decided in favor of the person who registered the work.

Here is an item of interest involving Lou Reed and poor man's copyright:
http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/7709286/lou-reed-archives-acquir…
"The archive also contains a 5 -inch tape reel that Reed mailed to himself in May 1965. It was common at the time for songwriters to create a “poor man’s copyright” by sending a recording of a new song to themselves and then not opening the package, thereby establishing a copyright date with the postmark. The package remains unopened, and is believed to be from the first Velvet Underground demo sessions that occurred on May 11, 1965 at Pickwick’s studios in Queens. It’s still being decided when, and if, to break the seal on the package."

This is an actual case and we can follow it to see what happens. But this is unlikely to be contested. Let's see if and what any issues are raised concerning Lou Reed's sealed envelope.

More:
http://www.hypebot.com/hypebot/2017/03/songwriters-poor-mans-copyright-…

"Always consult a music attorney with any legal questions you have regarding your songs."

http://www.hypebot.com/hypebot/2016/05/traditionally-mailing-ones-work-…
"Now, with the internet, the argument people try to present to me is that once a person posts something on the internet, the timestamp of the posting is enough to show that the work was created on or before the date that it was posted online"

What if the website becomes non-functional? What if YouTube or Google closes shop?

"Federal copyright registration with the United States Copyright Office is always advisable because:
A person cannot sue in federal court for copyright infringement without a federal registration.

The date of creation listed on a federal registration certificate is the strongest evidence a court will consider.

Federal registration provides additional benefits including but not limited to:
Public notice of who owns the work

Listing in the United States Copyright Office’s online databases

A legal presumption of ownership of the work in court (if certain conditions are met)

Statutory damages and attorney’s fees (i.e. more money!) can be awarded to the winner of an infringement suit (if certain conditions are met)"

http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/history_of_innovation/2014/05/…

"It’s a nice idea, but the problem with the poor man’s copyright is that it doesn’t work. The humorless federal copyright office explains on its website, “The practice of sending a copy of your own work to yourself is sometimes called a ‘poor man’s copyright.’ There is no provision in the copyright law regarding any such type of protection, and it is not a substitute for registration...

There are countless Internet forums where commenters spout misinformation about copyright and intellectual property law, and claim that they are protecting their creations through the poor man’s copyright. But somehow they never seem to cite any triumphant stories of successfully defending it in court.”

"But it doesn’t matter because you don’t even need to spend money on stamps or certified mail to get a copyright. “The way the statute reads, pretty much the moment you have it fixed you’ve got copyright,” Wiant says. “It’s not even the poor man’s copyright because even the poorest man, the minute he/she finishes something they’ve got protection.”

So, it’s time to put away the stamps and the envelopes for good. All that fan fiction you wrote in college, incredibly, has had federally recognized copyright all along."

Agreed, as long as someone has not stolen your copyright by registering it with the copyright office.

I see in the news that Selena Gomez has filed to copyright her name. This is probably a news reporter's mistake. You do not copyright the name "Madonna" or "Bob Dylan." You get a trademark. Whatever happened to the Beatle's company "Apple?" That's an interesting trademark case and it led to people not being able to download Beatles songs and albums on iTunes until very recently. Because Apple computers successfully lifted the trademark "Apple" off of the Beatles. And if that can be done to the Beatles, what can happen to little ol' you and me?

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