Repeat goes to wrong volta on playback

• Jun 1, 2017 - 04:19

Hi,

I have a piece with a Repeat section and 4 voltas.
On playback,
After volta 1 is played, it goes back to the repeat section, then correctly goes to volta 2.
After volta 3 is played, it goes back to the repeat section, then correctly goes to volta 4.
But,
After volta 2 is played, it goes back to the repeat section, then incorrectly goes to volta 2 and not volta 3.

I cannot tell what I'm doing wrong. Plaudite,_Psalite.mscz
I'm attaching the file. Any help is appreciated.

Thanks,
Ross

Attachment Size
Plaudite,_Psalite.mscz 28.82 KB

Comments

When there are several variations of ending and only repeat once each passage, the list of repetitions of each volta must be set to 1. This is counterintuitive but in fact in this case it is necessary to treat each ending as if it were the only repetition.
See file corrected : Plaudite,_Psalite_1.mscz

In reply to by jeetee

Hi,

Thank you for the corrected score. I have a applied your changes to my since updated score and it plays correctly.

I still don't understand what the terms mean in the page on voltas or in your reply.

They page says, for the example given:

"If you want one volta to be played only on certain repeats and another volta on other repeats, enter the repeat times in a comma separated list. In the example below, this volta will be played during repeat 1, 2, 4, 5 and 7."

What does it mean to play on a certain repeats? To me that says that if I want volta 1 to play after the first time the repeat section is played, then repeat list should be 1. For volta 2 to play after the second time the repeat section is played, then repeat list should be 2, etc. That's what I did, but clearly that's wrong, and it's not what the above means.

And I'm sorry to say (feeling very dense) that I don't understand either comment made to my initial post.

"Indeed, the repeat list applies to the nth time those measures are being (/would be) played."

I have no idea what this actually means.
Does "repeat list" apply to the repeat section or the volta or both?
Can you give me an example of what happens:
If I set volta 2 with repeat list 1 vs repeat list 2 vs repeat list 3, what's the difference on playback?

Thanks.

In reply to by rd4muse1

The basic concept to wrap your head around is this:

The 2nd ending is played the *first* time *that particular ending* is encountered. We never see the 2nd ending the first time through the section, because we hit the repeat sign at the end of the first ending. The second time through the section, we skip the 1st ending and for the first time actually see the 2nd ending. So you need to set its repeat count to "1" - you want it to play the first time that particular measure is reached. If you are also supposed to play that ending the third time through the whole passage, that would mean, the *second* time you actually see that measure, so the repeat count would be 1 & 2.

In reply to by rd4muse1

The attached file shows how to set MuseScore voltas. As I wrote in my previous post each repetition must be treated as if it were the only one of the score.

Alternatives de reprises en.mscz

The settings of the properties of the voltas is not always what is expected and is rather illogical but that is how MuseScore works. It should be noted that older versions of MuseScore did not handle repetitions very well and this is a legacy of this in order to maintain compatibility with previous versions of MuseScore.

I attach 2 other files that show everything that works with MuseScore ( it is understood that the partitioning process is never more complicated and that it is not even necessary to do so ). By analyzing how the elements are parameterized in these examples you should find the solution to put in place a "road map" a little complex ( not forgetting that it is necessary to remain reasonable and better to copy a passage than to transform the score into a labyrinth ).

Reprises multiples.mscz
Reprises complexes.mscz

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

I don't understand.

<< We never see the 2nd ending the first time through the section, because we hit the repeat sign at the end of the first ending. >>

Seems clear, but then in the example loaded by Miré, the first two voltas are:
1 à 4 listed 1,2,3,4
and
5 listed 5 ==> why not listed 1 ??

Based on that and trying to understand I'm trying to do the basic sample:
ends: A B C to be played A B A C.
I can't find how to do this, see test file attached:

Attachment Size
test.mscz 3.23 KB

In reply to by Miré°

No that's not true.
In my example measure under volta 2 must be set to 1 (as it is) to get the correct behaviour (which it has). And this is in line with Marc has explained.
The problem is with the the measure under the third volta.

In reply to by frfancha

I am not talking about the list of repetitions in the properties of the volta but of the number of repetition in the properties of the measure.
In your example the reading is done thus ( I give the name of the notes ) : C D E (return) C D F (return) C D E G (return) C D F E D C ( there should be a return between E and G ). This is obtained by setting the number of repetitions of the measure ( in Its properties ) under volta 2 at 3). Completely unexpected I admit.

It is useless to look for a logic of functioning, if MuseScore, at present, manages repetitions better, that the old versions, it is still not really performing in this domain.

Any repetitions that are a bit complex ( multi crossed endings ) are always solved by setting up tricks, which is why the manual does not document them.

In reply to by frfancha

Voltas set the number of time were measure(s) under volta are played before the jump. The number of repeats set in measure properties is the real number of repeats.

This measure is played once but set at 3... without a doubt is a bug ? :(

In reply to by Miré°

Repeat properties control *how many times* the passage controlled by that repeat sign is played. Volta properties control *which* times it is played. Two different things, hence two different settings.

That said, I am having trouble getting this example to work as well. What I expect to work is setting the repeat count for the D to 3, leaving the repeat count for the E at 2, and having the repeat lists for the voltas set to 1, 3 for the first and 1 for the other two. But this doesn't work. Not sure why.

In reply to by Jojo-Schmitz

<< 2 as a Play Count is a good enough default >>

I find this confusing: simple score with no repeat at all are played once.
So displaying 2 as Play Count is strange.

Another disturbing example: a simple score with just a repeat bar line at the end with Play Count 3. All other measures have Play Count = 2, but all measures are clearly (and correctly) played three times. So what does this 2 mean?

In reply to by frfancha

You can only change it when the measure contains an end repeat barline. That number only has a meaning if there is an end repeat barline, and in that case 2 is a good Default.
Maybe it'd be less confusing if measures that don't have an end repeat barline don't show that property at all, and that change would be easy enough to do, just change a setEnabled() to a setVisible() in mscore/measureproperties.cpp, line 135
See https://github.com/musescore/MuseScore/pull/3192

In reply to by frfancha

The repeat is *taken* once, but that means the measure itself is *played* twice. Exactly the same ambiguity happens in real life when telling other musicians to take a repeat twice, and they all ask, "do you mean, honor the repeat twice so the passage is played three times in all, or do you mean the passage itself is to be played twice". Half the world naturally assumes the phrase means one thing, the other half assumes the other, but most are savvy enough to realize this is a common point of confusion with no right or wrong answer and that's why they ask for clarification.

MuseScore can't ask for clarification, all it can do it document what it wants.

In reply to by frfancha

Indeed, I wasn't talking about that. I was just addressing why we use "3" instead of "2" to mean a repeat that results in the passage being played three times in all.

But for ordinary measures, I would note the "2" is grayed out, indicating it isn't actually relevant. I guess the idea is that by having it default to 2, then you don't need to change it manually when you add the repeat barline. Of course, the act of adding the barline could change it for you. But it looks like we are going with an alternate plan - simply not showing the play count for non-repeat measures, so there is nothing to get confused about or forget (internally, it will still be recorded as 2).

In reply to by Isaac Weiss

Hi,
I started this thread, almost to my chagrin at this point, :-), because I still don't see quite how this works. It's not easy to grasp.

I'm attaching a test score with three examples.
In the first example, I removed *all* numbers from the Repeat List.
In the second example, I set the Repeat List to 1 for all voltas.

Those two examples play identically. Not what one might expect, but I think I know why, based on what Marc had explained to me previously.

The first time through a volta is not a "repeat" of the volta. It's the first encounter with the measures in the volta. It seems you will always encounter volta measures at least once. And the repeat sign at the end of each volta is honored. So setting the Repeat List to empty has no effect.

Setting the Repeat List to 1 is equivalent to an empty List because after the repeat sign is is honored, then we would hit the volta measures a second time. But the Repeats List is 1 (first time), so the volta is skipped on this pass.

In the third example, I let the Repeat List be the default that came with each volta: 1 for volta 1, 2 for volta 2, 3 for volta 3. For volta 4, I edited it to be 4 to be consistent with the others, even though there's no repeat sign at the end of the volta.

Play back for this default example for each pass, from the starting repeat sign:

Pass 1: Volta 1 plays once, then repeats back.
Pass 2: Volta 2 is played -- this is the first encounter, the repeat sign is honored.
Pass 3: Volta 2 is played again. This makes sense because the Repeat List is 2 and this is the second encounter. But I expected the repeat sign to be honored and it is not. Why is that? Does that have to do with the Play Count for the measure? I see the default Play Count for measures with a repeat sign is 2, but I really don't know what that means. They're not necessarily played twice.
Pass 3, continued: So the second time volta 2 is played, the repeat sign is not honored, and it continues on to volta 3. The repeat sign in volta 3 is honored.
Pass 4: Volta 4 is played and the line ends.
Volta 3 only plays once because its Repeat List is set to 3, and we never encounter volta 3 a third time. It's never "repeated".

Do I have this right?
Can you explain what happens on Pass 3?

Thanks,
Ross

Volta,_Repeat_Test.mscz

In reply to by rd4muse1

Your third example contains errors/inconsistencies which is why it doesn't play right. Basically, there is nothing there to tell MuseScore what to do on pass 2. Volta 1 says, "not me - I was already played". Volta 2 says "not me - I won't be played until the second time you ask, and this is the first time". Volta 3 says "not me - I won't be played until the third time you ask", and similarly for vola 4. So things basically apart. Not having anything better to do, MuseScore goes ahead and plays volta 2 even though it shouldn't, then takes the repeat. This now uses up the play count for that repeat sign. On the next pass, volta 2 says "hey, now I *am* supposed to play - this is the second time you've asked, and I'm set to play the second time". So it plays. But you've already used up the play count, so it doesn't repeat.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

The third example may contain errors and inconsistencies, as you say, but I did not create them. These are the defaults that Musescore supplies for each volta selected from the palette. Perhaps they should be changed.

You wrote, "Not having anything better to do, MuseScore goes ahead and plays volta 2 even though it shouldn't,"
That is not what I see happening, based on the first two examples. As far as I can tell, a volta is always played at least once -- for its first encounter -- so it seems consistent that it would play volta 2 on Pass 2.

On Pass 3, you say it's already used up the Play Count. But the default Play Count is 2, and this is the second time I've gotten to this measure -- How is it used up? I need a clearer definition of Play Count to really understand that.

In reply to by rd4muse1

For Play Count, see https://musescore.org/en/node/211686#comment-730516. We use a play count of 2 to mean a repeat that is taken once, consistent with how you might colloquially say "let's take this repeat twice" when you really mean, let's play the *passage* twice thus take the repeat once.

MuseScore may play a volta the first time it is encountered, because as I said it has nothing better to do at that point.

And yes, I suspect it makes sense to modify the voltas on the palette to start off set correctly.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Thanks, Marc.

I think the language does make it a bit confusing.

After your explanation about the Play Count, I made two more tests.

I set the Play Count in the last measure of volta 1 to 1.
It plays through the first volta, then stops completely.
I guess "passage" applies to the measures from the opening repeat sign through that first repeat sign in volta 1. Since it's been directed not to play the opening measures again, it stops.

I set the Play Count in the last measure of volta 1 to 3.
It plays through the first volta and takes the repeat back to the beginning.
It then plays measure 1 and measure 5 (the first measure of volta 2) simultaneously. That was unexpected. I didn't think it would ever play two "linear" measures simultaneously.
Then it plays measure 2, then jumps to volta 2, as expected.

I don't know what it's doing. Maybe I've given it some bizarre configuration, but I find this whole topic of voltas, Repeat lists, and Play counts very confusing. I will spare you any more tests. Volta,_Repeat_Test2.mscz

In reply to by rd4muse1

Just as "play count" of 2 means the passage is played twice, play count of 1 meanplayed once. So, the repeat is ignored.

The glitch when multiple measures are played simultaneously happens if the play counts don't line up with the volta properties so there are too many voltas for the number of repeats or vice versa. Or, very occasionally, this might happen due to a bug.

In your example, it doesn't make sense to set the play count to three for the first volta - that particular repeat only needs to be taken once, so the passage is only played twice as far as *that* repeat is concerned. You'd only need a play count of 3 if you intended that volta to be used twice.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Marc,

You say:

<< The 2nd ending is played the *first* time *that particular ending* is encountered. We never see the 2nd ending the first time through the section, because we hit the repeat sign at the end of the first ending >>

I think I understand that, but it is not what the handbook Voltas says: (just revised by Thomas)

<< this volta will be played during repeat 1, 2, 4, 5 and 7. Another volta will have the other ending, like 3, 6 and possibly other higher numbers like 8, 9 >>

So, I'm lost.

In reply to by Jojo-Schmitz

<< No, he is shown as the author. >>

Oops indeed sorry.

Wouldn't be more useful in the 'Recent posts' views to show the last updater name instead of (or next to) the author? Especially for pages for which the number of 'Replies' is zero as the Handbook.

In reply to by frfancha

In fact, this repetition must not be considered as multi-ending but as 2 independent repeats and must be parameterized as such. The volta 2 is only played once and its repetition list must be set to 1 (it is not passage 2 of the first repetition which actually does not exist ... the bug is there).
 
t1.mscz
 
The attached file executes correctly c d e c d f c d e

In reply to by frfancha

There are 2 Repeat Bars, which means 2 imbricated repeats and MuseScore does not always handle them correctly.

The volta 1, 3 ( repetition 1) is logically set and normally performs its first reading.

The volta 2 ( repetition 2 ) is set as an independent repetition ( list of repeats to 1) but it is actually it executes c d f reading of repetition 2 but perceived as 2nd reading of repetition 1.

c d e being the 3rd reading of repetition 1.

The 2nd reading of the repetition 1 is an illusion and it, as I have already written : one should not seek logic because there is none ( unless a bug is logical ).

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