Add a replace mode in fingering
Currently selecting a note with a fingering and double click another fingering will add a 2nd fingering and not replace the existing one.
This is what is wanted in some cases, but most of the time one just wants to replace the existing fingering.
First selecting and deleting the existing fingering works of course, but adds more mouse manipulation to the already very laborious fingerings entry work.
So the feature request is: provide a mode in which adding fingering to a note replaces any existing fingering instead of adding to it.
Comments
Wouldn't it be better; if you double-clicked, directly on the old fingering number?
What's wrong with that?
In reply to Wouldn't it be better; if… by Ziya Mete Demircan
Thanks for the suggestion, but it doesn't solve much:
1) After double clicking you still have to delete the old fingering
2) The main problem: it only works for one note at a time, the process of entering fingering is already very time consuming, adding the limitation to do it one note at a time would be painful.
In reply to Thanks for the suggestion,… by frfancha
Maybe after a double-click, the content is automatically selected (by software), so that it can solve the problem.
In reply to Maybe after a double-click,… by Ziya Mete Demircan
That's surprising because here in MuseScore 2.1 (on windows 10) double click a fingering doesn't select it, the cursor is positioned "in" the text at the place of the double click.
Do you use a special option to make double click select the fingering, or is your MuseScore version or OS different?
In reply to That's surprising because… by frfancha
Mine was a +1 request too (In the previous message, I tried to express indirectly).
I want to say: "there would be no problem, if auto-selected".
In reply to Mine was a request too… by Ziya Mete Demircan
"First selecting and deleting the existing fingering works of course, but adds more mouse manipulation to the already very laborious fingerings entry work."
Overall, I agree about the "very laborious fingerings entry work". On the other hand, I do not see how, after the first selection, you need to "add more mouse manipulation". So:
Double-click on a fingering -> Ctrl + A -> eg type i, or m, or 1 or 2 (numpad) for replacing/re-writing the former fingering, and thus, the mouse was never used in this action.
Alternatively: double-click -> Backspace or Del depending where is the cursor, and type 1 or i etc.
In reply to "First selecting and… by cadiz1
Hi Cadiz,
You're right ctrl-A is a good tip, but it requires to replace fingerings one by one so it is helpful only if very few fingerings must replaced. But when very few fingerings must be replaced the current process is not so heavy anyway, so...
Another drawback of this suggestion (double-click fingering=>ctrl-A=>input fingering) is that it works only for new fingerings doable by keyboard. E.g. in the palette I have the fingerings i m a o and the same with a circle around the letter. I use the one with the circle when the fingering is "important" or not intuitive. I don't know how to access these fingerings from keyboard.
In reply to Thanks for the suggestion,… by frfancha
Indeed, Ctrl+A adds only a single step to the operation.
But also note, if your intent is to replace all fingerings in a given passage, even easier is to delete them all at once (eg, select the range, right click one, Select / All Similar Elements in Range Selection).
In reply to Indeed, Ctrl+A adds only a… by Marc Sabatella
Wouldn't the best solution be to handle fingering in the same way as eg. figured bass and lyrics, so the cursor automatically advances when Spacebar is pressed and Enter moves down the stack in a chord? I don't know how difficult it would be to implement, but the programmers would know that.
In reply to Wouldn't the best solution… by Louis Cloete
Louis:
You're right. But this only works if the melody is monophonic.
Think of the piano and guitar chords. How then should it be?
With every space-bar stroke, should it pass through the chord notes from top to bottom and then pass to the next beat?
How to handle: if there are two or more voices on same staff?
Perhaps for this reason they did not integrate the "space-bar advance" system into Fingering.
In reply to Louis:… by Ziya Mete Demircan
All valid points, but in my opinion easy to solve. For chords, let the cursor start by default at the top note and use another key to advance down the chord, eg Enter. Similar to stacking figures in Figured Bass. For voices, it could work like lyrics and only "see" or "use" the notes in the voice in which you started. I hope I made myself clear.
In reply to All valid points, but in my… by Louis Cloete
I think there is general agreement that a mode to handle fingering something like how it is handled for lyrics or chord symbols would be good to have some day. It would be a significant amount of effort to design and implement, though, and so far no one with an interest in seeing this happen and the necessary skills to do it has volunteered. Hopefully some day!
In reply to I think there is general… by Marc Sabatella
I don't even think it will help all that many people: Violinists for example generally enter fingerings only to indicate position shifts; as long as the position is maintained one uses the fingers as they fall (exceptions: deliberate use of open strings, harmonics, chromatic scales and overstretched fingers). Meaning one would have to click, click, click through a lot of notes before arriving at a point where a fingering is again required. Looking at piano scores with fingerings: They also generally have the majority of the notes (even the majority of chords) without fingerings.
I am sure there are exceptions (material for beginners comes to mind) but for most cases it would not speed up things very much.
Even a replace mode would solve only some problems; different fingerings will mostly require position shifts at different locations putting the fingering on different notes.
This just goes to show how complicated this fingering business is.
In reply to I don't even think it will… by azumbrunn
I think you do not really understand the incredibly long time to grasp several fingerings in guitar scores for example (in multi-voices context) of a few pages.
It's been three years and more, that I fight this, and despite all the attempts of improvement, it really misses the essential way to navigate the score to enter the fingerings.
For now, a click to select a note, then two clicks to add a fingering, and so on for each note is really an unpleasant experience in the long run. Then start all over again for the other hand. Really, I speak from experience, believe me, this request has absolutely nothing futile.
In reply to I don't even think it will… by azumbrunn
<< Meaning one would have to click, click, click >>
No. Adding the possibility to enter fingerings by keyboard would absolutely not remove the current facilities.
And would certainly not add "click" necessity.
In reply to << Meaning one would have to… by frfancha
cadiz1: I can see that guitar is a different case: Two hands of five fingers each to deal with.
frfancha: "click" is not to be taken too literally in my description. And it is true that it would not remove the possibilities already existing; all I am saying is that for the majority of situations it would not be a big improvement if any.
Which gives me an idea: How about a "fingering mode"? One would finish the score, then enter "fingering mode". In there one would click on a note, type the fingering, click on the next note (or alternatively move forward with the arrow key?), etc.
Wouldn't this speed things up? One might even speculate about a "marking mode" that would allow adding dynamics, articulation and other markings in a similar manner. I have no idea how hard it would be to program of course.
In reply to cadiz1: I can see that… by azumbrunn
Hmm, and I thought piano would be played with both hands too...
In reply to Hmm, and I thought piano… by Jojo-Schmitz
I know but I have seen fingered piano scores and they don't look all that crowded with numbers. I am assuming this is because there are lots of situations where a "standard fingering" (that is embedded in the reflexes of pianists) will do fine.
The difference to the guitar is that there you need one left hand finger and one right hand finger to cooperate for one note. I think this makes it rather more complicated.
In reply to I know but I have seen… by azumbrunn
Out of curiosity, I counted the number of fingerings of a simple page of a published score for guitar (see attachment): well-known French edition house, and famous arranger also.
I arrive in total of nearly 200 LH fingerings and nearly 90 RH fingerings!
By imagining the number of clicks to select notes, and double clicks to enter the fingerings, it is truly faramineous (fast calculation, almost 900 clicks ...) For a single page of music!
All scores for guitar are not like this one, nevertheless, they exist, it's a fact.
Cutting1.pdf
In reply to Out of curiosity, I counted… by cadiz1
FWIW, there is no need to click a note if you wish to avoid that. After placing a fingering and using the cursor keys to adjust its position, press Ctrl+Alt+Shift+Left (or Right) to move the selection back to the note. Now Ctrl+Alt+Shift+Left/Right again to move to the previous/next note. It automatically cycles through the different notes in a chord, different voices, etc.
You still need to double click the fingering, but at least the mouse can stay in the palette area.
The accessibility work being undertaken for 3.0 should include the ability to apply fingerings and other elements using user-assignable keyboard shortcuts, which would eliminate need for the mouse at all.
In reply to FWIW, there is no need to… by Marc Sabatella
I confess that I did not use these accessibility shortcuts Ctrl+Alt+Shift+Left (or Right): they select any previous or next element, notes, but also barlines and clefs etc.
So I did not really need it until now.
I was even more circumspect after a test because these three shortcuts (Ctrl/Alt/Shift) stop, lock your left hand, and so, to go from one element to another, you must use the arrows keys with the other hand.
This meant that to enter the fingerings you had to press an arrow (right eg), go to the mouse to double-click on a fingering, leave the mouse to go back to press an arrow, return to the mouse for input a second fingering, and so on . Not ergonomic, and frustrating. So, bad workflow, not good!
On the other hand, and thank you for that, it allowed me to remember that under Windows (only Windows I believe), the "Alt Gr" key is a shortcut of Ctrl + Alt.
So, by changing the position of the left hand on the keyboard, I can, only with the left hand, press two shortcuts (instead of three), ie Alt Gr + Shift (under Enter), and so arrows (with thumb) which now are in the same area.
One can thus navigate with one hand, and no longer leaves the mouse for input the fingerings (and preferably, by displaying the Fingerings palette of the Master Palette, to keep the focus on the score, just below the staff), see image below.
![Alt +.jpg]( "Alt +.jpg")
We are approaching - at least for Windows users - a viable and reliable solution (a pity always for double-click)
In reply to I confess that I did not use… by cadiz1
FWIW, when I am working on something where I want to use these commands a lot, normally customize the shortcuts to "[" and "]", which on my US QWERTY keyboard are very easy to reach and not otherwise used in MuseScore.
Depending on exactly how you like to navigate, there are commands you might want to look at using. Some don't have default shortcuts at all.
In reply to FWIW, when I am working on… by Marc Sabatella
The challenge was not only to find simpler shortcuts, but also and especially that they had to be near the arrows keys. I managed to improve a bit, but basically, this morning, the solution was found.
Because the second interest of this way of doing is to be able to finely adjust, with the same left hand, the position of the fingerings as long as they are highlighted (then to continue to navigate with the shortcuts)
Otherwise it would be really a pity to start all over again, and to have to select the fingerings (so, new clicks...) for adjusting them later. Because, as you know, in a guitar score - single staff- with multivoice context, the space is often a rare and expensive commodity!
So I managed to simplify a little these shortcuts, and with a bit of practice, and using the master palette (I repeat, it's important to keep focus on the score instead of wasting time and energy to go from left to right, eg, x times), the workflow has improved considerably.
Still a bit, I think of double clicks of course, and I would consider this problem almost as solved!
In reply to I don't even think it will… by azumbrunn
Not necessarily a problem skipping a lot of notes, since Tab key already skips to next bar with figured bass. The same logic could be applied here: skip quickly through the "empty" bars with Tab and then use Spacebar and/or Enter to navigate to the correct note in the bar where you want to place a fingering.