Impossible to complete this score... really stuck.

• Mar 5, 2018 - 20:43

Hi, this is my first ever post as I have found a issue I don't believe can be fixed currently, but I wanted to just ask if anyone else has a solution....

I am currently copying the entire score of the Immolation scene in Richard Wagner's Gotterdamerung Opera, and it requires a lot of multiple different time signatures at one time, in several instruments. In this scenario it is 4/4 which is the initial and main time for this section of the Opera, but 12/8 time comes in alot at different points for the redemption motif.

My Issue: I have tried everything I can possibly think of, but if I put in 4/4 time on one instrument, but 12/8 on another as needed, the file becomes corrupted every single time.

However if I try and not have them both at the same time, but rather enter notation in 4/4 time for example, then over the same barline / different instrument then attempt to add 12/8 time, it simply doesn't allow me to at all, giving me the error: Cannot change local time signature. Bar is not empty.

.... I think this is a dead end, and I thank in advance any advice, even though it probably won't help.

Here is the offending score, if it is needed:

https://musescore.com/user/5199981/scores/4993450

Attachment Size
Wagner_Gotterdamerung_Grande_Finale._Immolation_Szene._Full_Score..mscz 85.25 KB

Comments

• Mar 5, 2018 - 21:23

I just tried deleting everything and then inputting the time signatures, but it ends up in a entire bunch of other problems, which is best explained if you open the file and try first hand.

But it causes a entire barline, on all instruments; to changes time signature, even if I change the time on only a single instrument.

Another problem, I inserted a different time successfully, but it didn't do anything, the time still stayed the previous time, and not the one I changed it to....

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• Mar 5, 2018 - 22:07

With the issues you are having I would suggest you use the time signature that will make cause you to use the fewest changes to update the measures. When the time signature changes use ctrl+drag to add the SAME time signature already in that measure. You can then right click that time signature and change the displayed time signature to be correct.

Next, if you are using the 4/4 time signature and inserting 12/8 where needed, make the measure fill with 4 1/4 rests (select the measure, press 5, right arrow, 5, right arrow... until finished), select the measure and press ctrl+3, this will change all of the 1/4 rests to triplets as required for 12/8 time. Select the measure and right click a 3 in the triplet and use the menu select>all similar items in selection. In the inspector turn both the number and bracket to nothing. This will make the measures look like real 12/8 time. You can copy these measures or entire beats, but not part of a triplet from one measure to another. This means, before you start entering notes, you can copy this measure to all other measures with the same situation. Note that the time signature will not copy so you will need to reenter it in each measure. You can also set up a time signature like this in the master time signature palette (Shift+t) so you don't have to modify each time signature.

If you are using 12/8 time signature and inserting 4/4 where needed, select a measure and press ctrl+alt+4 to change the measures to 4 1/4 rests. You will be able to then copy only complete measures since the entire measure is not a 4-thlet, but you still do all of the same things as above to change the time signature and hide the unwanted 4's and brackets.

I will defer to you that using local time signatures is causing too many problems and not try to explain what I know of the pitfalls to avoid since the above described method is rather simple.

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• Mar 6, 2018 - 01:01

I don’t know if this is helpful, but I came across an issue in Act III of Die Walkure where two instruments were in 12/8 for one measure while the others remained in 4/4. I couldn’t make it work, until I realized that the 12/8 was incorrect; the notes played back correctly when written as is and the time signature left as 4/4. The workaround was to insert the 12/8 marking using symbols from the master pallete to keep integrity with the original score, while giving them no effect on playback.

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• Mar 6, 2018 - 02:57

An option is always to "fake" it. Insert in some 12/8 time signatures that are not actually 12/8 time signatures, but 4/4 that you simply altered the text to be 12/8. Then, take the rest that's currently in the measure and turn it into a triplet (3-tuplet). Make the bracket that appears over the notes invisible, and notate away.

If you wish to do it in the opposite way (12/8 true time signature, with 4/4 measures), do the same procedure except turn them into duplet (2-tuplet).

This method will work for any bizarre setup you have going on with your piece's time signatures; for instance, I've been transcribing a piece that has some voices in 4/4 and others in 12/8, concurrently, and this method works without error for that. Just, uh, be wary of your tempo during these- you may need to adjust it to match. Easily done by sticking in an invisible tempo text.

Be warned, though- dotted notes might be a little finnicky with the duplet-in-12/8 method, and you will get corruption if you're not careful. Fortunately it's isolated to the specific duplets, so you can just delete and redo.

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• Mar 6, 2018 - 16:05

Well I just tryed to keep it as 4/4 time, and use tuplet's to get 12/8 time within a 4/4 signature, but it ends up not being able to put in any notes longer than the 3/3 tuplet space, so whilst I may be able to finish the score, it will look terrible, very messy, and this option would also be extremely time consuming, and not worth going through all the effort...

thanks for all the help, but it seems it's basically impossible to finish like I thought it was.

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• Mar 6, 2018 - 16:26

You can use longer rests to turn into triplets as needed, such as a 1/2 note when you need a dotted 1/2 note in the measure. I suspect this would be the exception, so in these cases you would need to select 2 triplets, delete them and turn the relusting 1/2 rest into its own triplet. You can simply select the measure and use 6thlet (ctrl+6), but there will probably be editing and beaming problems as you enter the score.

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• Mar 6, 2018 - 16:37

That may work, but it is way too much effort for such a already large and long score to complete, so until Musescore fixes the core problems, this piece and any others that include extensive local time signatures I will just have to avoid completely - it's not optimized enough.

Although I will leave the score uploaded for a while in case someone has a more economical fix but hasn't informed me yet.

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• Mar 6, 2018 - 16:57

I would agree that there are a lot of problems with local time signatures that need to be fixed. I seems there is work being done to totally revamp the local time signatures and tuplets for what will likely become version 3.0 when it comes out. It is completely a matter of personal preference if the effort is worth the end result and I don't blame you one bit for putting this on the back burner.

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• Mar 6, 2018 - 17:17

If you can give precise step by step instructions to reproduce the corruption, we can certainly try to investigate. As mentioned, there are definitely known limitations and issues with local time signatures, but we do try to keep the feature at least minimally useful. Right now, I don't know of cases where the mere act of adding the local time signature causes a corruption. I know of ways to corrupt a score by then doing copy and paste, or by certain operations involving removal of time signatures, or in combinations involving local time signatures plus modified actual durations, or if you try exporting / importing using MusicXML. If there is a case where merely adding the lcoal time signature corrupts the score, we still have a small window of time to potentially fix that for 2.2

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• Mar 6, 2018 - 17:40

While there may be tricky time signature issues that MuseScore is not able to process, so far I haven't found any. See three different groups playing simultaneously in three different time signatures in Don Giovanni, which frankly I think Mozart did just to show off (page 10 especially):
https://musescore.com/martystrasinger/don-giovanni--act-i-ballroom-scene

In La Boheme, Act II starting in measure 106, the on-stage band is 2/4 against 3/4 in the rest of the orchestra:
https://musescore.com/martystrasinger/scores/2787181

I'm not saying that the problem you're having can, or cannot, be addressed in MuseScore, but if there is a workaround, once you figure it out it should be easy to implement as required. The "figuring it out" will be the hardest part. Best of luck,

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• Mar 9, 2018 - 10:45

Well I have managed to input time signatures again, BUT I have corruptions in the file still, I don't know how I got it so I will just ask, can anyone please fix this for me?

The corruption upon loading is:

Bar 43 Stave 41 incomplete. Expected: 24/24; Found: 8/12
Bar 43 Stave 42 incomplete. Expected: 24/24; Found: 8/12

Corrupted file is attached below.

IF someone can fix that, then maybe I will actually be able to complete the score I am working on, thanks for the help all.

Attachment Size
Wagner_Gotterdamerung_Grande_Finale._Immolation_Szene._Full_Score..mscz 668.72 KB

Reply

• Mar 10, 2018 - 14:21

Well thanks to everyone, especially Jojo for the help - I think I now have the fix. And if I run into any more problems which I have no solution for (hopefully not), I will make another thread if it happens.

For now, doing good. This thread can be shut down and be marked as solved.

Thanks A LOT all.

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