Trasposing key for Eb intruments when concert key is E
Hello
When concert Key is in E, Musescore automatically transport Eb instruments in C#, which is technically correct, but Imho it would be better to see them in Db, as reed players are more comfortable with flats rather than sharps.
You can see Szymanowsky's Concert Overture where key is E but Eb clarinet is in Db.
https://imslp.org/wiki/Concert_Overture%2C_Op.12_(Szymanowski%2C_Karol)
To change from C# to Db I had to go to Staff Properties and switch transposition several times, then when put again in Minor Third (for Eb Clarinet) it went to Db, I can't even tell the exact way I did it, I just switched several times...
Version: OS: Ubuntu Core 18, Arch.: x86_64, MuseScore version (64-bit): 3.4.2., revision: 148e43f
Comments
See #39176: Option to convert transposed instrument key signatures into enharmonic equivalent when number of accidentals exceeds limit?
There is indeed a pending change to allow control of this, but I'd like to challenge the basic assumption that reed players are more comfortable with flats than sharps. In general, that's only true when you speak of concert pitch keys, and it's true precisely because those flats go away in the tranposition. So for instance, Eb major with three flats becomes C major with none, whereas A major with three sharps becomes F# major with six. When it comes to the actual written key, Eb instrument players are far more accustomed to seeing sharps, since the most common keys will all result in sharps for them.
That said, it's going to be subjective as to whether any given saxophonist might happen to prefer five flats over seven sharp., A player of a concert pitch pianist will almost always prefer Db because five is less than seven, but to saxophonist who hardly ever sees any flats at all, five could easily be completely overwhelming, whereas seven sharps is just a one or two more than what he sees every day.
In reply to There is indeed a pending… by Marc Sabatella
Orchestral clarinettists are probably more at home with flats than sharps as sharpy keys will more often than not be written for the A clarinet which makes them three sharps fewer than the concert pitch fraternity. We can and do play with key signatures of more than 5 sharps but I (as a sample of one) would say I am more comfortable in the enharmonic version with flats.
In reply to Orchestral clarinettists are… by SteveBlower
True enough for orchestral clarinet players, less true for saxophonists, or clarinet players whose main experience is wind bands. Of course, many of these people also play flute, or piano, or some other instrument, so it's a bit unfair to say they seldom see flats - they seldom see them while playing that specific instrument. Anyhow, absolutely agreed we should provide the option, but also, it is important not to assume all reed players will prefer the five flats, because based on my own experience directing bands on a regular basis, the majority of the players I work with and have asked (dozens) have voiced a preference for sharps in this case.
In reply to True enough for orchestral… by Marc Sabatella
Perhaps US and UK practices differ, but in my 50+ years of playing in wind bands in the UK (orchestras came later), I have very rarely seen more than 3 sharps on a Bb clarinet part. Actually, now I think about it, most of the occasions where I did see more than 3 sharps have been in US arrangements.
In reply to Perhaps US and UK practices… by SteveBlower
Four sharps very rarely? Did you also have A clarinet parts in those bands? If so, then that would explain it.
But if there were only Bb parts, then four sharps would happen every time a piece was in D major, which should be pretty darned common. And for alto saxophonists, it would happen every time a piece was in G, which would normally be even more common. I guess maybe it depends on the repertoire of the band, if it skews to military marches etc, you'll see more flat keys, if it skews toward adaptations of orchestral music, you'll see more sharp keys. In my case, most of the bands I've directed are in jazz, which definitely skews heavily to flats, and yet probably every single week we play at least once piece in G or D concert.
In reply to Four sharps very rarely? … by Marc Sabatella
Wind Bands tend to play in a limited number of keys, most used are: Bb, Eb and F. Very often, transcriptions of Symphonic or Opera music for Bands are transposed to a more friendly key. But yes sometime you have to "face the sharps" :). I remember playing Morricone's music in quite a variety of weird (to me Bb clarinet player) keys, also because in his music he tends to make many key changes.
In reply to Wind Bands tend to play in a… by reblues
We have no A clarinets in UK concert bands, just Bb, Eb, Eb Alto and Bb Bass.
As reblues says, transcriptions are often transposed to make them more friendly for Bb players. For example, Hebrides Overture, which in the orchestral version is written for A clarinet is transposed up a semitone in the (rather ancient) concert band arrangement I have played, and so we play exactly the same written notes on a Bb, with a key signature of 1 flat.
Another example I have to hand is Nicolai, Merry Wives of Windsor Overture. The orchestral version has clarinets in C. The concert band transcription I have played was transposed down a tone so that, again, we played the same notes on a Bb. When I later encountered the orchestral version and at that time not having a C clarinet, I had to play it on a Bb a tone higher than I was used to. It's a common enough transposition but this was real finger knotter. Only one sharp going to two sharps in the key signature for a Bb instrument, but the accidentals make it much less under the fingers - especially when the fingers are used to the same tune in a different key.
In reply to We have no A clarinets in UK… by SteveBlower
I guess that no Concert Band has A Clarinets, all over the world. In America at the time of Civil War, bands were basically only Brass Bands following British tradition, then, a massive number of Italian immigrants went to America, among these, there were many musicians who played in their hometown community bands and who brought along their instruments. Italian band tradition (like French one) consisted in meny reeds. These Italian immigrants started changing the American Band Tradition. In Sousa's band reharsals were in Italian because most of his musicians were immigrants. Sousa was also the one that switched from Albert (German) fingering system to Bohem (French) system for clarinets because he tought it was better and he didnt want something "German" in his band. This to say that somehow, American band tradition has some roots in Italian band tradition (of which I do belong playing Bb Clarinet and sometimes Alto sax in bands in Lazio region, although regretfully, these days all band activities have been suspended due to Coronavirus).
This is an example of an Italian Symphonic March which was brought to NY by Italian Immigrants (Inglesina by Davide Delle Cese), still today it is among the 100 most performed marches in USA. You can listen how the clarinets are used (Which was uncommon at the time in USA).
https://youtu.be/WHC-BBt2ekU
In reply to I guess that no Concert Band… by reblues
That is a good piece and new to me.
I googled it and first found what seems to be a fairly recent (2000) arrangement by Bourgeois and what looks like a much older version published by O. Pagani of NY. I only found the instrumentation list for the recent arrangement and it is quite different to the older version. The old version instrumentation is
Solo Bb cornet
Db flute
Eb Clt
Bb Clt 1 & 2
Sop, Alto, Tenor, Bari saxes
Bb cornet 1 & 2
Eb Alto 2, 2 & 3 (Eb horns I guess)
Trombones 1, 2, 3
Trombone di canto (what is that?) it is labelled as "tenor" followed by a treble clef but is actually written in bass clef.
Bomardino/baritone (What I would have as euphonium/baritone I guess)
Basses
Perc.
The newer version has:
C Piccolo
Flute I-II
Oboe I-II
Bassoon I-II
Eb Clarinet
Bb Soprano Clarinet I-II-III
Bb Bass Clarinet
Eb Alto Saxophone I-II
Bb Tenor Saxophone
Eb Baritone Saxophone
Cornets I-II-III
Bb Trumpet I-II
Horn in F I-II-III-IV
Trombone I-II-III
Euphonium (Bass Clef & Treble Clef)
Tuba
String Bass
Timpani
Percussion,
I guess that the link you gave is to the latter version. But I see what you mean about the clarinets. Just decoration really while the cornets get the tune.
In reply to Four sharps very rarely? … by Marc Sabatella
I guess I have a broader sense of what constitutes a wind band. In the US, there is a quite common type of ensemble called a "wind ensemble" - most high schools and universities have them, and there are professional ones as well - and the standard repertoire is quite modern and varied, a far cry from the military-style bands I guess others have in mind. Anyhow, I guess the lesson here is, one really should not assume too much about what any given wind player's experience and preferences might be.
In reply to Perhaps US and UK practices… by SteveBlower
The USAmericans are just sharper than the Brits it seems ;-)
In reply to The USAmericans are just… by Jojo-Schmitz
Probably just me, but I just can't see any point in arranging ( and especially composing) for A clarinet, Db flute, or (gasp!) cornet. Even in my music school college days, ( 1970) none of the trumpet players would even touch the cornets that the school tried to provide. Tradition dies hard.
In reply to Probably just me, but I just… by bobjp
"none of the trumpet players would even touch the cornets that the school tried to provide."
There are some very cheap and nasty "educational" standard cornets out there.
Take a look at https://www.makingmusic.org.uk/resource/introduction-brass-bands and see "the point" of arranging for cornets. And listen to this to hear "the point". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjpAM5YWeQU
In reply to "none of the trumpet players… by SteveBlower
These were not cheap cornets.
I know very well the roll of cornets vs trumpets.
I know that there are places where this may not be so, but if I write a cornet part chances are that it will be covered by a trumpet. I don't have a problem with that. There are many other things to worry about.
As you know, there were many solo pieces written for cornet in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. These are used by trumpet players as audition pieces. Why? Because of the tradition that trumpets are loud blatty instruments incapable of producing the mellow, melodic sound of a cornet. So these pieces where written for cornet.
In reply to These were not cheap cornets… by bobjp
Ah well, I guess the cornet is not cool enough for some students. Their loss!
There is much music still in the 21st century written for and played on cornet in the British brass band scene. It would be a major error to turn up for an audition at a brass band with a loud and blatty trumpet :-)
In reply to Ah well, I guess the cornet… by SteveBlower
Ah the British. Bless their hearts. I'm not a brass band fan, so I probably won't have much problem. Concert band is something I'm more interested in. I know traditionally cornets are used there also.
Nothing wrong with tradition. But if we get too stuck on instrumentation, we'd need to play Baroque and early Classical music on radically different instruments. And the groups that do that are few and far between.
I wonder how many would notice if at the next outdoor brass band concert trumpets were used instead of cornets. I was a drum major. Playing outside does all sorts of things to sound. few of them good.