Scroll bars missing?

• Apr 12, 2015 - 09:11

Are scroll bars completely missing in MuseScore 2.0, or is there a way to turn them on? I'm not seeing scroll bars in either page view or continuous view. (Mac Yosemite 10.10.2) I find dragging around a score a very uncomfortable way to work.



You mean the vertical scroll bar at the bottom of the navigator? You need to enable the navigator for that (it is disabled by default in 2.0, was enabled in 1.x)

Also Page Up and Page Down keys, although I guess Mac keyboards don't generally provide those and require some sort of key combination. But between those and the mouse wheel, scroll bars really should almost never be needed. When you wish to have them, the Navigator is still available as it was in 1.3. Dragging the score is indeed not a good way of working.

Thanks for the reply. Actually, now I play with it, what I am missing is the ability to page right or left or up and down. As was pointed out, macs don't have these keys. Some applications allow a combination of keys for this: for instance, fn + arrow key often works, or cmd + arrow keys, but not in MuseScore. This is where scroll bars come in: not for scrolling, but by clicking in the blank area outside the scroll, one is generally able to jump to the next… well, not the next page necessarily, the next bit of the screen next to the one you are working on.

In reply to by tedthetrumpet

Well, it depends which Mac keyboard you have. A small keyboard, such as is found on a laptop, doesn't have page up and page down. The larger one with the numeric keypad on the right has them, along with a forward-delete key.

But, as you say, "This is where scroll bars come in: not for scrolling, but by clicking in the blank area outside the scroll" —well, that's how the Navigator works. Try it. You'll get used to it pretty quickly.

I am reviving this post because the lack of scroll bars is a complete and total disaster when working on a thinkpad. The touch-stick scrolling does not work at all to scroll the music. With the touch-pad enabled there is some buggy scrolling, but it's unworkable.

The disappearance of scrollbars is a phenomena of apps designed for small screen phones and tablets. I don't think there are many people composing scores on their iPhones! Please add scrollbars for navigation, otherwise inevitably users will hit the "up arrow" / "down arrow", which alters pitches and can foul up a score, particularly if you can't immediately spot the blue "active" note.

This navigation flaw is so fundamental that it turns the app from great to "Do I really HAVE to use Muscore? Maybe I'll just do it by hand." That's how bad it is.

In reply to by gdeangel

Can you explain what specifically about a thinkpad is unique? You have neither a mouse nor a trackball nor a touchpad, is that it? Only the little pointing stick? And there is no way to configure that to work as a mouse wheel?

I am not sure how much sense it makes to add a new UI component just for the sake of one hardware-deficient computer model. Maybe better is to find another solution that is compatible with your device - basically implementing our own version of the mouse wheel action that apparently the designers of this computer neglected to include.

If there'a a left/right scroll bar it would be more convenient and not feeling weird since i'm so used to use left/right scroll bar at the bottom from many other programs.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

It's not that I prefer scroll bars. The navigator is a wonderful and very convenient tool. But having it hidden by default makes new users instantly miss scroll bars. If the navigator was displayed by default, no one would probably need anything else because it is absolutely intuitive. But if we don't see it, it's not.

In reply to by peewhy

Sorry, but it's about a logical as putting T*TS on a mule. There is one reason only for doing it this way, and it's to accommodate "finger slides on touch screen" type scrolling. And to accommodate that "innovation", the rest of normal users working with a mouse and keyboard or other similar conventional input modality must deal with added layer of useless complexity. It's frankly absurd to the point that the individual responsible for this design choice should be whacked on the head repeatedly on the head with the stupid stick until they start eating their peas through a straw. It's that ridiculous.

As for the comment about "why a thinkpad is different" ... made by somebody above -- on a thinkpad, you have the point stick which doubles as both the mouse and the scroll. When you lock-in with the "scroll" button, it causing the nub to work like a scroll wheel, but at the same time not quite like a scroll wheel. Thinkpad modality does not scroll using the mouse without the scroll locking or a selection in progress (nor does any sane application - the mouse is used to move a cursor. If you want to scroll, you put the mouse over the designated scrolling widget (UNIVERSALLY KNOWN AS A SCROLL BAR!!!) There is only one type of worthless modality that doesn't follow this paradigm, and it's the one where lazy people doing casual work pick their nose and wipe it across a touchscreen. Because they aren't sitting at a desk doing work, they are playing around on a phone. If you want Muscore to be what "shot on an iPhone" is to professional photography, they yeah, keep up the good work dumbing it down. There are plenty of unduly complicated, poorly documented components to the software that could be made more intuitive. Scrolling ISNT one of them.

In reply to by gdeangel

Indeed, as mentioned. Thinkpad users do face unique challenges based on the constraints of the hardware. But for the record, for most people, it’s not touch screen that is the usual mode of scrolling, but rather, the scroll wheel and pgup/pgdn/home/end keys. They make scroll bars pretty much unnecessary. But indeed, old habits die hard, just as I can’t bring myself to not type two spaces between sentences. So I do understand attachment to a particular interface style that has always worked for one in the past. Which is why, again, scroll bar fans will be happier with MU4 since it does add these.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

I personally make extensive use of the mouse wheel, but it certainly can't replace scroll bars. If most users use the scroll wheel and pgup/pgdn/home/end keys, it's because most users don't work on long scores. I often have to select measures across multiple pages. This implies clicking on the first measure and shift-clicking on the last one. Using the wheel is absolutely tedious if the selection has to span multiple pages, plus my mouse has a wheel acting as a middle button (mandatory under Linux) and it often happens that I press the wheel too heavily while scrolling, resulting in an unwanted middle button click which deselects the first measure. Again, the navigator is perfect for this, and even more because it may be enlarged to the point that each thumbnail page becomes graphically identifiable. The only problem is that we have to RTFM to know about this. The best interface is one that doesn't need a manual, which would be the case if the navigator was displayed by default. Given what we know about MuseScore's product manager, we can reasonably hope that things will get better in this domain!

In reply to by Pierre-Yves Saumont

As mentioned several times, MuseScore 4 will have scrollbars, no no need to waste screen space further with the Navigator by default. Meanwhile, you're welcome to make it open as part of your default config in your Preferences or Workspace settings. For most people, it isn't needed and thus wastes space, so if it was enabled by default, people would have to read the manual to learn how to get rid of it. No matter how you slice it, any sufficiently powerful program is going to require a tour of the manual.

Not sure what you mean about making selections, though. I use PgUp/PgDn, Home/End (in conjunction with Shift or not) as well as the scroll wheel all the time, making selection of many pages at a time, and it works just as well in msueScore as it does in a word processor or any other document. But if your particular device is designed to make the scroll wheel awkward to use, that's unfortunate indeed.

In reply to by Pierre-Yves Saumont

I'm not really understanding your confusion. Of course clicking a location in the timeline works equally well whether the location you are trying to jump to is currently visible or not. Are you really suggesting it shouldn't?
By "scrolling" I mean, laboriously moving page by page until you get there. That's what the Timeline makes unnecessary. It's not a bicycle - it's a teleportation device, taking you directly to the desired location with no scrolling required. So it's exactly as fast to move forward 100 pages as to move forward 10 pages.

And yes, it definitely fits the exact use case you mentioned - selecting bars 19-193. Click bar 19, then Shift+click bar 193 in the Timeline. Done in an instant, no need for scrolling or guessing which page bar 193. Better still, you don't even need to know it's bar 193 you need. In most real world situations, you don't already know the bar number, you know things like "I want to select from the start of the flute solo to the end of the tuttti section that follows the change to E major". That's what the timeline makes trivial.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

From the documentation:

Select a measure
To select a measure in the timeline, press the mouse button on the cell. A blue box will appear around the selected cell and the respective measure in the score will be selected. The score view will place the selected measure in view.

The last part isn't happening. The score view doesn't place the selected measure in view.

In reply to by jeetee

Yes! Thank you. It was not obvious (for me!) that the setting for playback was used for the timeline, plus I didn't even know about this functionality for playback. I was annoyed because the score was not automatically panning while playback, so this is killing two birds with one stone. Thanks!

In reply to by Pierre-Yves Saumont

I hadn't realised that the automatic panning button also affected score panning during navigation. I always have it turned on and so hadn't noticed the difference. It raises the question, should that button be part of the playback toolbar when its effect is more wide ranging? If that button is not pressed and the playback toolbar is not being shown, it is going to be difficult for a user to work out that a two stage operation - 1. show the playback tool bar and 2. press the button - is required to get the score view to move with a selection. Certainly step 1 is not intuitive - why think of showing the playback toolbar when you are not currently interested in playing anything, just navigating/selecting?

In reply to by SteveBlower

I consider that a bug. Originally this button only affected playback. But we used to get lots of requests for a way to disable the automatic panning that happens during note input as well. Someone hit on the clever idea of using the same button for both, which would have been fine, except that in implementing this, it ended up affecting the Find command & the Timeline also (perhaps other things).

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

"But if your particular device is designed to make the scroll wheel awkward to use, that's unfortunate indeed."

I know. It's always the user's fault, either because they don't know anything about music, or because they want to do things that they shouldn't do, or because they are stupid enough to use the wrong hardware. My particular device is a Logitech mouse, which is designed to make the scroll wheel awkward to use as much as MuseScore is designed to make using scrolling music awkward.

What I mean about making selections is that if I want to select a single staff in a thirty-page score, I can't click in the first bar, then hit shift+end, as I would intuitively do in any software. In MuseScore, it extends the selection to the end of the line. Intuitively, I would think hitting shift+end a second time would extend the selection, maybe to the end of the same line on the second page (I would then have to do this only thirty times) or better to end of the score. Nope. The second time, it doesn't do anything. Shift+ PgDn or Shift+PgUp don't do anything either.

Of course, the manual has the answer, and finding the answer is "relatively" easy. Google "MuseScore selection", read the first page proposed, realize that it's not the right one, read another page. One minute is an acceptable delay, provided that the command is used often enough to be memorized. Is it? It doesn't seem so, since even you, in your answer, do not have the right solution. (Shift+Ctrl+End). This is a well-known problem: The time needed to learn a command is much less important than the time to relearn it every time you need it.(Every former Finale user is aware o the relearning time problem!).

But that's not all. Selecting whole staff in a thirty-page score is much less common than selecting an arbitrary section, such as, for example, measures 19 to 193. The navigator allows this easily. Just enlarge it so that the thumbnails show the form of the page content. Then clicking on measure 19 then shift-clicking measure 193 is easy. But much importantly, it's intuitive.

Ideally, the navigator should be displayed by default, and it should be collapsable by dragging the resizing arrow fully down, just because it's the way such things are done in the huge majority of software applications. And the navigator does take so much space when minimized:

Screenshot from 2022-03-19 09-06-16.png

This said, the navigator has stopped working for me. It was working fine yesterday until I restarted MuseScore after having configured it to display the Navigator by default. Now, it no longer works. It slows down display and Linux is displaying the message "MuseScore is not responding" with the "Force quit"/"Wait" buttons. This, on the other hand, might be a good reason not to display it by default!

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In reply to by Pierre-Yves Saumont

I don't know how V4 will implement scroll bars. I download it once in a while, but it has problems running. No matter, I can wait. Here is what makes sense to me: Don't ever want to see scrollbars? Make it a choice in preferences, like the Navigation bar.
I have nothing against the Time line or the Navigation bar. But I don't need them and both take up too much screen space. I understand all the nifty things they can do. Those that like and use them? Great. Are they better than a scrollbar? That's a matter of opinion. I just need a fast simple way to get around a score that I already understand and know how to use.

In reply to by Pierre-Yves Saumont

It's not about "fault" - it's about recognizing that every user has different hardware, different physical abilities, and different prior experience - and thus different needs. We try our best to find the best compromises we can between all these conflicting requests, and that sometimes means making tradeoffs.

FWIW, when the decision was made to remove the navigator from the default view, it's because there were many users with small screens complaining too much space was being wasted. We also get complaints about various things that aren't optimized well for people on very large screens or who use multiple displays. Some people have touch devices and are upset that we don't optimize for that. Others have visual acuity issues and have their own unique needs. We try to take all of this and more into consideration and then make the best calls we can.

Anyhow, indeed Shift+End is not the shortcut for selecting to end of document - not in MuseScore or any other software I know. End is the shortcut for end of line; you need to add Ctrl to get to get of document, same as in any other program I can think of. These shortcuts and others are all documented in the handbook as well, yes - but the defaults were chosen to be as comfortable and familiar as possible, so people will find things mostly work as they expect from other commonly-used programs. I'm not sure if you are suggesting MuseScore should invent a new model rather than leverage what is familiar to most people already? I could certainly imagine also supporting multiple Shift+End gestures as a way of moving past the end of line. But that certainly wouldn't be intuitive since other programs don't generally work that way. Ctrl+Shift+End is the gesture people generally already know from how it works in pretty much every other program.

And BTW, I didn't mention Ctrl+Shift+End ins my previous response because it wasn't clear you were talking about literally selecting to the end of the score. From what I could tell, I thought you wanted a random selection of several pages somewhere in the middle of the score. That's why I mentioned the scroll wheel and tried to understand more about why that wasn't working for you as well as it does for others - the extra information about the problematic middle mouse button helped me understand that, so thanks for that extra info.

Anyhow, please understand, we are all real human beings here, volunteering our time to help make MsueScore the best we can, balancing the often conflicting needs of a large and diverse group of users. We're not out to deliberately make anyone's lives harder, but it's true that sometimes tradeoffs need to be made, and that can mean optimizing one use case at the expense of another occasionally. If there are legitimate reasons to reconsider certain decisions based on new information or a changing user landscape, that's certainly a discussion worth having. But please, let's keep it focused on the technical issues and refrain from the thinly-veiled personal attacks that too often prevent these discussions from being productive.

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