Insanely ambitious project idea - Open Anthology of Western Music
Inspired by the success of the Open Goldberg project and the ongoing efforts to create MuseScore versions of the pieces in the various ABRSM syllabi, I have an idea for another project of larger scope.
The Norton Anthology of Western Music (NAWM) is a much-used resource in the academic world. It's a huge reference in several volumes containing representative scores, with analysis, covering the entire history of Western art music. It's an amazingly useful educational resource. Want to look at an Bach organ fugue? A Lasso motet? A Beethoven symphony? An act from an Verdi opera? A Stravinsky ballet? A Cage piece for prepared piano? Chances are, you can find them in the NAWM - meticulously accurate scores with expert analysis. Also, a companion set of CD's with professional recordings.
I want an "open" version of this. Not copying the same scores used by Norton - that would be illegal, anyhow - but creating our *own* representative anthology of scores. Only public domain sources, of course, but that still includes a huge amount of the kind of music we'd be interested it.
Of course, there are already a collection of free classical music out there - some on musescore.,com, some on Mutopia, as well as archives of mostly scanned music such as ISMLP, Project Gutenberg, etc - but I'm talking about something rather more organized and authoritative - "curated" would perhaps be the operative word. Part of what makes the NAWM so useful is the selection of scores themselves. Plus, actual MuseScore files rather than PDF to allow you to work with the scores, get playback, etc, also peer review to correct errors, provide commentary, etc. And ideally, professional recordings to use in the playback.
It's a gigantic undertaking, of course, but again - it can start small. Even a handful of well-picked scores done well would be hugely useful, and once the ball started rolling, I'll bet interested would develop and more contributors would come on board. Plus of course, it would really put MuseScore on the map.
This is the sort of thing I think musescore.com could organize via a group, It's also something one could pursue funding for, whether via Kickstarter as with Open Goldberg, or other grants. But I'm not really in a position to do that kind of organizing myself. So I though I'd toss up the idea here, see what anyone thinks.
Comments
It could link in well with my MuseScore Library project?
http://musescore.org/en/node/17302
Put it this way, if you would like webspace there for it you would be welcome to have it.
MAWM?
It could also link (well?) to my slowly growing collection of early music in MuseScore format: //www.vistamaresoft.com/musica/ .
Of course, my scores are, almost by definition, highly unrepresentative of Western music 'mainstream', but some of them are (and more will in the future) odd enough to be of some interest.
I think the most difficult part would be the non-musical part: commentary, analysis and so on: this requires real expertise, which is not so easy to look for and to find.
Anyway, I think it would be a path worth pursuing! Let's think BIG!
Thanks,
M.
Yes indeed, there is plenty of room for synergy with your respect projects. The aim is somewhat different, but clearly, the same scores could fit both well.
BTW, when I mention the desire to "curate" the scores and have a representative collection, it helps to keep in mind that this doesn't preclude overr-representing some styles, genres, or composers. It's not like a printed collection where there is reward for keeping things as concise as possible (otherwise, the books would get too large and too expensive). On the other hand, a "curated" index of recommended scores, along with a collection of other scores in a similar format and up to the same standards, would be fine.
So anyhow, glad to see interest already. I could imagine getting university grad students in making projects out of this, too...
Hey Marc, your idea is exactly in line with what we had in mind for our next step after the Open Goldberg Variations project, which we named the Open Score project. From our lessons learned with Open Goldberg, we identified several challenges for the next step:
* A slogan: The open goldberg project liberated one piece only with the slogan: Setting Bach Free. This slogan really worked well and I'm sure if we didn't have it, the kickstarter wouldn't have been successful. As we are raising the bar now, with liberating more public domain scores, a new great slogan will be required.
* Being picky: for the goldberg variations, we picked a challenging score which required Werner to improve/developing MuseScore while he was transcribing it. Of course he can do so, but for non coders, it would be a pity to hit into an issue which prevents you of finishing a transcription. So the message is to start with easy scores.
* Collaborative transcribing: we added a feature on musescore.com to make comments on the actual score, which enables collaboration between the transcriber and reviewers. For collaboration between transcribers, we figured that other services would be handier, like dropbox, etc.
* Publishing: the Open Goldberg score resides in its own account but for the follow up project, we'd like to make a more open environment, call it a wiki environment. In there people can upload public domain sheet music (CC0), upload revisions and make the catalog stronger.
* Kickstarter: the open goldberg kickstarter worked out very well, because the message was brought across in a very professional way and because it resonated to a lot of different people. All credits for running the Kickstarter go to Robert Douglass, who did an amazing job promoting it. We managed to make this happen once, why not a second time indeed.
These are just a few things that I wanted to note down to join the conversation.
Looks good :).
If this was to go ahead though, I think it would be better to wait until at least 3.0. Reasons include bug fixes, more features and improved presentation - it would appease any critics and create less work.
In reply to Looks good :). If this was to by chen lung
Thomas - thanks for your comments, and I'm glad to hear this meshes well with your thinking. I do agree that one should be careful not to tackle any scores that would be too difficult to create, and that it is best not to even try using 1.2 since so much is changing for 2.0. But I see no reason to assume 2.0 won't be stable and feature-rich to handle 90% of the scores we'd be wanting, and I also assume there won't be major changes in file format etc any time soon after 2.0. So chen, while I know you can be very particular about things and are thus finding too much not meeting your satisfaction, I'm actually quite pleased with where I see 2.0 being, and don't see it as being insufficient for most scores. Who knows how many people would be eager to start with 2.0 and how many would rather wait to participate, but I don't see a problem with earlier adopters getting started sooner. I kind of figure it will start slow and grow anyhow.
In reply to Thomas - thanks for your by Marc Sabatella
2.0 is a major step forward in terms of score creation.
I am already starting to use it for serious (although not critical) work, and am currently holding off on the MuseScore Library project until it is released. This is mainly because of the features like ornament control and continuous view which will be coming with it.
I see no reason, however, why people shouldn't start on scores for this project now.
In reply to Thomas - thanks for your by Marc Sabatella
I follow your reasoning Marc. There is no reason why the current state of MuseScore (i.e. 1.2) should block the start of the Open Score project. After all, we don't consider MuseScore nightly to be stable enough yet for a beta release. As of the beta release, our current plan would be also to support musescore 2.0 score upload on musescore.com. Currently we only support 1.2 or older.
2.0 will be a big release, but I think we should be careful not to become impulsive to carry out tasks. Problems are likely to still exist, with some possibly detrimental (e.g. those discerning in notation could be deterred) - we won't have certain features either (see this about improved automatic placement of score elements). I'm also wary about certain manual controls and workarounds - it could cause problems later, or with compatibility.
I'm aware everyone will have different opinions about MuseScore. However, I think we should let it mature and once confidant, it can be agreed to start something.
In reply to 2.0 will be a big release, by chen lung
What better way to inspire development than to push the limits and try? You can do a lot in 1.2 already (if you know the tricks), 2.0 should be that much better judging from the improvements The Open Goldberg project required (and a whole lot more). I say go for it! This project will certainly identify improvements and then we'll see what 2.1 and 2.2 bring out.
In reply to What better way to inspire by schepers
I would agree about using it to improve MuseScore, but I'm cautious about the presenting of it until there is consensus, particularly from experts - especially after seeing feedback about the Open Goldbergs.
I'm trying to think how it would work:
For improving things in 2.0 and onwards, I think it would be good. For the presentation though (ensuring notation and engraving, etc), maybe 3.0 or after.
In reply to I would agree about using it by chen lung
Valid arguments Scott. You could see it perhaps in phases, just like any editing process goes. Basically, anyone can help making a transcription, but the final stamp of quality can only appear after someone with authority has reviewed the score. And here is where the Kickstarter can come in place. It could fund the time of typesetting experts to finish a score. That final phase could be done later, but we can start already making a body of works even in 1.2, not claiming it's the highest quality of in the industry, but at least the scores are open and available to anyone.
In reply to Phases by Thomas
(Reposted elsewhere in the topic.)
In reply to I would agree about using it by chen lung
I looked at a whole bunch of the examples from that critique of MuseScore, and as far as I can tell, most are criticisms of the engraving decisions made, not anything the software itself is doing wrong. The very few comments that turned out to represent bugs in the software have already been fixed. And somehow, it seems quite unfair to judge 2.0 too harshly with respect to bugs when it is still *months* away from any sort of release.
So while those were interesting and valid (if someowhat subjective) critiques of one particular score created by one particular engraver using 2.0, but I don't see how one can possibly see it as an indictment fo the software itself. Unless you believe the software should just automatically do everything perfectly, with no manual adjustments of any kind ever needed. That's a nice pipe dream, and I suppose Lilypond tries to chase it with varying degrees of success, but in the world of WYSIWYG notation software, it's just expected that you'll need to adjust some things manually. Which is to say, it's highly unlikely Finale or Sibelius would have done significantly better out of the box (Sibelius' "magnetic layout" feature notwithstanding). People accustomed to producing manuscript for publication using notation software expect to need to make some adjustments, and as someone who has done this using both Finale and MuseScore, I really no evidence whatsoever that MuseScore is not up to the task for most scores. There are a couple of existing bugs that I hope and expect to see fixed - handling of collisipns of second in multivoice context, etc. But they'll be more likely to be fixed for 2.0 if we start actually pushing on things harder. And even if they don't all get fixed (and it's practically a given than any release of any software still has *some* bugs), I and others have become pret adept at the workarounds.
So, if you personally would rather wait to particupate until more things are done automatically, that's fine, but really, I see MuseScore doing as well as any other software overall.
I agree with Marc about not starting in 1.2, as you may encounter some difficulties - you could perhaps start in 2.0.
I don't know much about notation and engraving, so I would have to rely on the feedback of others. Anyway, I know 2.0 has more work to do and will be great in the majority of areas :).
I like the idea of a Kickstarter funding the time of experts to ensure higher quality in scores, but I don't know how it would go. Would it benefit all scores in MuseScore, or the ones being focused on? Would changes cause disruption elsewhere? I'm sure we all want engraving and notation to be as high quality as possible - is there more of Elaine's book to incorporate? Maybe doing that first before considering scores would be better?
In reply to I agree with Marc about not by chen lung
My own inclination - if I had the time to actually get started - might be to start note entry in 1.2, but not publish anything until I had a chance to load it into 2.0 and re-save. Meaning, nothing would really "launch" until the release of 2.0. not that 1.2 can't produce publish-ready scores - it can - but I think there is valid concern about discrepancies that might appear.
As for hiring experts, I see several opportunities:
- someone to act as editor-in-chief, ultimate responsibility for everything from selection of scores to standards for formatting
- people to do the engraving
- people to write the analyses
- proofreaders
- people to provide guidance and feedback to the MuseScore development team on improvements to be made
Not that there *need* to be paid people in all of these position, but that's the basic breakdown I see.
Goudl's book is enormous in scope; I'm sure all notation programs will be scrambling for years to catch up. And yet, Finale and Sibelius have been used for years and even decades to produce published manuscripts, and MuseScore does at least as well in most respects. So no, I still don't see any reason to delay just because MuseScore, like all other notations programs, has room for improvement.
In reply to My own inclination - if I had by Marc Sabatella
I agree that 2.0 will be good enough for many scores. Actually even 1.2 is good for many. See for example http://musescore.com/groups/the-beethoven-piano-sonatas
For one or two nitpicking experts, the OpenGoldberg score has been useful for many people. The availability of the content in an open format is a lot more important than its top quality.
Regarding hiring experts, I disagree. I see this project as a Wikipedia for sheet music. Wikipedia has worked for years without hiring anyone to create or readproof the content and they have skilled people on board and very good quality. If any money is raised, it should be used to build and keep online the best tools possible for the project (website, rendering servers, storage, bandwith, MuseScore itself...) and to advertise the project for more people to join. Experience shows it all costs quite some money.
In reply to I agree that 2.0 will be good by [DELETED] 5
Yes, the costs of keeping the website going are not insignificant, and the question is how should something like this be funded, whilst keeping the principle of providing free music.
I don't see Kickstarter funding as the way forward as Kickstarter funding is finite, and what is needed here is the means to fund the website and repository indefinitely.
I'm currently addressing this problem with my own MuseScore Library project for which I have started to build the website. You can either rely on donations, but IME noone clicks the donate button, or you can offer a free restricted service and have a subscription fee for unlimited access, or maybe offer unlimited access for providing scores.
I'm not personally convinced that the Wiki format is a good idea - IME setting up and maintaining anything using MediaWiki (for example) is a complete pain, and it may be better to use a specially built system.
I do think that MuseScore.com would play a huge role in this, as it already has the infrastructure for the uploading and playing of scores - indeed I am using MuseScore.com in my own project for this purpose, the MuseScore Library website is pretty much a specialist frontend for this, presenting access to scores in a slightly more organised way than MuseScore.com currently does.
Then there is the question of editing - would we allow anyone editing access? To my way of thinking that would be courting disaster, and an open invitation for the spammers to blitz their crap all over the project!
In reply to Yes, the costs of keeping the by ChurchOrganist
something like GitHub and pull requests might work? That way changes are a) not anonymous b) monitored and checked and c) versioned and rollback is possible
In reply to I agree that 2.0 will be good by [DELETED] 5
I agree the availability of the scores is more important than nitpicking about the finer points of engraving, but I can also see that you don't want to just put *anything* out there. Well, there is value in that too, but there is actually no shortage of poorly scanned or haphazardly engraved music out there for educators to use a resource, and believe me, we do use these. I do think the extra effort spend coming up with something "better" than what random people might submit on their own is worth it, but I also agree that this doesn't necessarily require any special Kickstarter-style funding of experts. The basic Wikipedia model does indeed work, even if we might quibble about the ease of use of the software currently used. Anyhow, I'm not saying we "need" to have hired experts; just brainstorming how money could possibly be spent were it to exist. lasconic is of course right that funding the infrastructure is ultimate more important.
So what I can see is a general Wikipedia-style library of scores that all conform to certain standards of formatting and quality, enforced collectively somehow. Any score could be submitted and approved provided it is deemed "notable" enough and that the engraving is up to the proper standards. So starting points would be developing the technological framework for this - perhaps leverage some existing wiki technologies, perhaps leveraging musescore.com - and also developing appropriate formatting and quality standards. Just getting that together could easily take long enough that 2.0 is ready by then, but again, that doesn't mean people couldn't start preparing scores with 1.2 if they felt like it - there just might not be anywhere to submit them to yet, and they might need a final round of editing to adhere to the as-yet-developed formatting standards.
If this Wikipedia-style collection were sufficiently well organized and indexed, the need for a curated list of "representative" scores would be lessened. If you want a Bach fugue, you could see a list of all Bach fugues that were part of the collection. The wiki model (again, in principle, if not in terms of actual technologies) would hopefully be sufficient to guarantee a certain level of quality. No reason people couldn't share their own "representative" lists, much as one might share playlists on Spotify.
FWIW, one nice point about having something like this done as a collection of MSCZ files rather than PDF files (aside from the obvious fact that you can *do* more with an MSCZ file) - it means that as MuseScore is improved, the same scores can potentially look better and better over time with relatively little effort expended. On the other hand, yes, loading a score into a new version and making sure nothing is lost and that improvements are actually taken advantage of does require *some* effort, which is also why the idea of a master "curated" list that gets this treatment seems useful while other scores end up being more static (submitted then forgotten about). What I can see is having the whole library available online, but making the "curated" list available as an app, or perhaps selling hardcopy versions. So anyhow, the "curation" aspect of selecting material seems less important to me now, but developing a good set standards and the technologies to make this all available seems more so.
In reply to I agree the availability of by Marc Sabatella
OK Marc, you've fired me up to start designing a front end for this.
I'm not sure how long it will take - I have a lot going on right now, but I may have something to show you all by the end of November.
Is there anyone around who can write in PHP?
Unfortunately my web design skills are currently limited to HTML 4, CSS and a little Javascript so if there is someone around who can write the database interface stuff - please step forward!
I think we are all agreed that MuseScore.com is the place to store the scores?
Perhaps we can link into code that Thomas has already written?
In reply to OK Marc, you've fired me up by ChurchOrganist
Thanks for volunteering to help!
I don't really really know the answers to the questions you ask, but am happy to try to collect a list of issues we need to resolve. I'm very busy the next few days, but let me give this some thought next week.
In reply to OK Marc, you've fired me up by ChurchOrganist
The secret is "don't start from scratch". A lot of people already wrote Content Management System. They do the versioning, the database, etc... for you. Check Drupal for example http://drupal.org
MuseScore.org and MuseScore.com are build on top of Drupal. MuseScore.com has an public API too so a score can be submitted there via a script.
In reply to OK Marc, you've fired me up by ChurchOrganist
PHP
While I'm pretty sure I do not qualify as a server-side script top-level expert, I have non-trivial experience in it, so I can volunteer in this area.
musescore.com and wiki
Well, for all the pros of musescore.com for a social point of view, I am not sure it would be the wisest choice for a reference material site, at least until ways are in place to properly qualify submitted material: in too many cases, scores in musescore.com do not even have a clearly identified author!
Author, editor and typesetter names, sources, period, dates, genre, style, instrumentation, etc, etc, should all be clearly marked and managed through reliable thesaura, authority lists and cross-reference lists (in how many ways the name of the Swan Lake author can be spelled? I'm not attempting even one!). I raised this points years ago for musescore.com but apparently, they were thought secondary.
IMSLP itself started with a level of informality (in any case, not so informal as in musescore.com) and now they are struggling to bring everything under some sort of order, with very positive results but with much effort.
This also probably says something about the wiki approach: it can be very useful, but only if policies can be established, agreed upon and enforced.
The whole point is in part to avoid junk being dumped into the archive, but also (and perhaps mostly) having reference value and access: once a score list exceeds a screenful, more sophisticated and reliable ways are needed to retrieve the needed material.
Re-inventing the wheel
I'm pretty sure very few have time to waste, so anything which can be re-used is worth looking at.
However, when starting to work on my score site, I looked at a number of more or less ready-made content managing solutions: WordPress, Drupal, Joomla and so on.
I finally settled with e107; or so I thought, because eventually I noticed I had to write the great majority of my DB access and pages by hand anyway, so I dumped the whole lot and went back to HTML/PHP, so that I can do the things I need in the most straightforward way, instead of trying to figure out how to insert them in a code structure someone else designed for purposes on average rather different from mine.
HTH,
M.
In reply to PHP While I'm pretty sure I by Miwarre
Regarding MuseScore.com, I was meaning it's use as a score repository for the project, with a frontend hosted elsewhere.
The advantage of this is that there are already systems in place for playing and viewing scores online, which are easily embedded in another site using iframes.
I have looked at Wordpress and found it wanting, and it may be better to set up a dedicated MySQL database for user registration.
I shall be having a look at Drupal over the next couple of days, and maybe Joomla too, but IME these systems force you into their own design mindset, which is why I rejected Wordpress.
In reply to Regarding MuseScore.com, I by ChurchOrganist
I thought I posted something yesterday regarding musescore.com specifically, but maybe I never hit "save". Anyhow, I understand Miwarre's concerns that is currently too "free" (as in speech) to work well on its own, but I too was envisioning a "front end" elsewhere with scores hosted on musescore.com, perhaps all posted from a single master account and added to a moderated group.
A further thought on the curation aspect - starting small at first, with a few well-chosen representative scores, would hopefully provide good examples for others to follow in contributing to the project. It's one thing to read a set of standards to learn how things are to be done, it's another to see them in action.
The area of developing standards is one where I feel unqualified except in a couple of specific genres. But it's the sort of thing that I imagine we can find a person with the right combination of knowledge of the subject, ability to articulate, and desire to make the rest of the world do things "right" :-)
An area MuseScore could benefit is consistent expertise in notation and engraving - something I've thought about for a while.
It might be difficult to pay someone, but are there any groups or organisations that could assist?
I'm doing my own project with http://imslp.org/wiki as the source for my classical music.