Tools>Transpose doesn't automatically adjust stem direction or height, nor does it add the appropriate key signature.
In the attached score I selected a couple of C scales and then used Tools>Transpose to transpose Up to G.
After transposing, a few things strike me as odd:
1) the stems remain in an upward orientation, when they should now be downward
2) the resulting stem height (perhaps unchanged) leaves the beams too close to the notes
3) selecting a measure and pressing x doesn't flip all the stems
4) transposing to G doesn't add the G key signature
Scale transpose - Stem direction - Stem length.mscz
scorster
Comments
That's because you have a custom position for your beam, if you uncheck the "Custom position" checkbox the stems display as expected.
The fact that C Major doesn't get transposed correctly when "Transpose key signatures" is checked definitely seems like a bug to me though, it works fine for other signatures.
That's because you have a custom position for your beam, if you uncheck the "Custom position" checkbox the stems display as expected.
The fact that C Major doesn't get transposed correctly when "Transpose key signatures" is checked definitely seems like a bug to me though, it works fine for other signatures. I've confirmed the same bug exists in MU4.
In fact specifically the problem is that there must be an actual "key signature" object existing in the range selected in order for that option to work. Even if another key, if I select a range of measures where no key signature is shown (e.g. I don't include the first measure in the system), then the key signature is not changed as expected. So that actually means the function behaves differently depending on whether your selection happens to include the first measure in a system, which is pretty odd.
In reply to That's because you have a… by Dylan Nicholson1
This is deliberate, I forget the reasons why, but years ago after some back and forth the consensus was that transposition should not add new key signatures, only transpose existing ones. I'd personally be fine with seeing that discussion revisited.
In reply to This is deliberate, I forget… by Marc Sabatella
Actually weirdly it seems with C major, it does create the transposed signature but only if the range selected includes the very first measure in the score. Yet for other key signatures it works as long as your selected range starts at the first measure in the system.
Either way, it's certainly not what I'd expect.
In reply to Actually weirdly it seems… by Dylan Nicholson1
C major at the beginning of a system or score is special in that it doesn't actually exist - it's the absence of a key signature that indicates C major. This condition is special-cased in some places, not others. This absence of key signature was another deliberate decision I was never crazy about - I'd much rather there had always been an explicit C major key signature internally.
So what's happening here is "more or less" as I said - only if the key signature is actually present does it get transposed. C major is never actually present, so it isn't normally transposed - same as for any other key signature if your range doesn't start right off with the key signature. But there is a special case added for the missing C major at the beginning of the score. Again, personally I'd be fine with the transposition always adding the needed key signature if the transpose key signatures option is present, or perhaps adding a new checkbox to the dialog to control this.
In reply to C major at the beginning of… by Marc Sabatella
I'd argue there's a difference between "no key signature" and "C major", and it's pretty unfortunate no widely-accepted/standard way of indicating "no key signature" has been established. But e.g. if you want to specify that your piece is in A minor rather than C major (which affects midi and musicxml export among other things), I'm not sure how you do it at all currently?
In reply to I'd argue there's a… by Dylan Nicholson1
For xml export, where would you "specify" major or minor? Don't the notes do that?
I've never specifically heard it put that way: That no key signature equals C major. That almost makes it sound like C major is not a key. If I remember correctly, we used the term "no sharps or flats". We counted the number of sharps or flats to determine the key.
Teacher: How do we know this piece is in C major.
Students: There are no sharps or flats in the key signature.
Sure, you could say there is no key signature. But that seems inconsistent.
It seems to me that C major is a key with its own signature.
So, is "no sharps or flats" the same as "no key signature"? Is it just semantics? It just depends on how you were taught. If I hear "no key signature", I have to think for an instant. If I hear "no sharps or flats", I know exactly what's going on. So I partially understand Dylan's question about why C major is treated differently than other keys.
In reply to I'd argue there's a… by Dylan Nicholson1
We do have an "open/atonal" key signature that is specifically designed for the actual music "no key signature" case - among other things, it means it won't transpose, ever, not even with transposing instruments. So that is an actual key signature element present in the score. But indeed, it's visually indistinguishable from C major or A minor, as there is no standardized way to notate a difference.
The ability to indicate the "mode" for a key signature is relatively new in MuseScore. Probably if it existed when the decision was being made to represent C/a by not having any key signature at all, this would have been seen as a good reason not have done that. Not too late to revisit, though. To me, that's a great argument in favor of always having the explicit key signature.
In reply to We do have an "open/atonal"… by Marc Sabatella
How do other notation software packages work here? Having some visible indication of the (non-printed) C major key signature would be good, not sure what it might look like though - a dimmed natural sign on the middle line of the staff? Though I'd prefer if it only showed up when moving the mouse over that area in order to give a clue there's something to click on. Also I think I'd find a single natural sign on a D in the bass clef a bit disturbing...
At any rate that's not really solving the issue at hand, which is whether a key signature should be explicitly added at the start of the transposed range (and cancelled afterward). My vote would be "definitely".
In reply to How do other notation… by Dylan Nicholson1
Dylan Nicholson1 wrote > ... [should] a key signature should be explicitly added at the start of the transposed range (and cancelled afterward)? My vote would be "definitely".
+ 1 for adding a key signature at the start of the transposed range and cancelling afterward.
I just transposed a 2 octave C scale to G, and everything was correct. Did I miss something?
In reply to I just transposed a 2 octave… by bobjp
Did you use a custom beam position? Did it add a G major key signature (assuming "Transpose key signatures" was checked)?
The custom beam position behaviour I think is OK, though potentially could be improved.
In reply to Did you use a custom beam… by Dylan Nicholson1
No idea what custom beam position means.
However, on working with this more, I found out some things;
a) Key signature is added only if the selection includes the first measure of the piece. Easy enough to add proper signature.
b) the beam problem seems to be related to the text above the notes being transposed. If I delete the text, beams turn the proper direction after transposing. If I just move the text out of the way, the same beam problem occurs.
c) If I add text above the notes using Staff Text, beams turn the proper direction after transposing.
In reply to No idea what custom beam… by bobjp
Custom beam position means if you manually dragged the beam to change its angle or the stem lengths. Also if you manually flip the stems using "X", or adjust their lengths manually via double-click and drag or via the Inspector. Manually adjustments like that are "locked in" and thus preserved after transposition.
In reply to Custom beam position means… by Marc Sabatella
Ah OK. Except in this case, what looks like custom beams was caused by the text above the notes. I don't know what kind of text it is, but it causes the stems to not flip and shorten under it. Drag the text out of the way and the transposition works as expected. I.E. stems flip. Replace the text with staff text and the stems work also.
In reply to No idea what custom beam… by bobjp
a) yeah I just noticed this too, but that's only true for C major. For other key signatures it only works as expected if the selection starts at the beginning of a system (or where there's an explicit key signature added). I can't see any obvious use case for that behaviour though.
I see this topic has evoked much worthwhile discussion on a number of related points.
To avoid splintering the discussion I've started a new thread about Beam>Postition x and Position y
Here's a side topic on flipping beams with the x keystroke and automatically on Transpose. I don't see a downside to either.
Please discuss in that thread.
scorster
In reply to Here's a side topic on… by scorster
Here's an updated example score illustrating the impact on beam positioning after Transpose or a clef change.
I'm sure blame will be laid upon using Custom Position, but I'd think Musescore would want "Custom Position" beaming to work reasonably well when the user makes changes via Transpose or a clef change.
Beam - Auto Direction - Custom Position - Transpose Octave 02.mscz
scorster
In reply to Here's an updated example… by scorster
FWIW, I opened your original score in Sibelius. Transposition in Sibelius is a two step process.
1) Transpose the first to measures up to G major. BTW beams reversed properly
2) Change key to G major.
It doesn't happen in one step.