Classical Guitar Soundfont

• Feb 10, 2020 - 08:30

I created my Classical Guitar Soundfont !

Since I’m not satisfied with default Classical Guitar sound, I had being hoping to create my own CG sound.
And I made it for the very first time! Almost all sounds (except D#2&C6) I recored & sampled.

I’m completely new in this field, and very much appreciate if someone gives me any feedback / technical advice.
I used “Polyphone” for the first time, I understood basics, but not advanced settings.

For now, I’m not so satisfied with treble sounds, little too metallic..
I wish if I can make these more mild, round sounds.
I did “rest stroke” on my right fingers except 6th string.

Link here
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2krvx12n97p2n2k/classical_guitar_1a.sf3?dl=0

Demo : Adelita by F.Tarrega
https://soundcloud.com/kazumayamamoto/adelita-ftarrega

*10.6MB / sf3 format
*mono recording
*Tuning 440Hz
*Range D2-C6
*Microphone : AKG C214
*Guitar : Kazuo / Kunihiko Ichiyanagi
*Sound editor : Audacity
*Soundfont editor : POLYPHONE


Comments

Hello,
Thanks for the contribution.
"For now, I’m not so satisfied with treble sounds, little too metallic."
Indeed, here too. Pretty ennoying.

For the record, are you aware of this page: https://sites.google.com/site/soundfonts4u/
The soundfont eg "Acoustic Guitars" JNv.2.4 is pretty good to my ears. In any case, better that the default soundfont.

In reply to by cadiz1

@cadiz1
Thank you for your comment!
Actually I'm thinking to replace some 1st string sounds to 2nd string, like

1st string E -> 2nd string 5th fret
1st string F -> 2nd string 6th fret.. until 2nd string 12 (B) fret, then switch to 1st string 8th fret (C)

And Thanks for the link, I've seen it before but didn't try that font. will try it :)

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

My advices:

for sampling:

  • Mute/silent other strings except the string you played during sampling. (Yellow cleaning cloths that you can cut into strips are ideal for this job.) Thus, you prevent the sympathetic resonance (and vibration) of other (open) strings.
  • Keep the microphone between the bridge and the sound hole, but a little closer to the sound hole.
  • Since this is a condenser microphone, adjust the ideal sound pickup distance between 5-25 centimeters by experiment. (Find the area where the body-sound of the guitar comes on average.)
  • Also, switch on the low-bass prevention filter on your microphone. (It's marked as /-- image: lf.png )
  • Do not sample from open strings, except for the low-E string.
  • Keep unprocessed raw samples, don't overwrite them. ( :) )

for The polyphone; In Instruments Section; set as (global):

  • Vol Env Attack: 0.003 (This setting prevents the non-existent and unwanted "crackling" sounds and some peaks {and pops} at the very beginning of the sample.)
  • Vol. Env. Release: 0.600 (This setting prevents the sound from being unnaturally cut off at the end {for classic guitar}.)

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

No, I wanted to say that if you want to work again later, the raw samples you keep will be useful. (Now when I say it that way, it sounded to me like a useless piece of advice.)

But you mentioned a nice point.

I think: Only normalization process can work. (If the volume of the sample you recorded is at a low level, the limiter and compressor will not work at all.)

And try not to record the volume very-low. The sound level which is tried to be increased by digital processes after recording may cause some problems.

In my experience: Ideal sample recording level around -3 or -6 dB may be good as it is necessary to leave a free-room above. (and It prevents square-wave formation and dropouts in any {momentary} peak situations.)

There is always a way to increase the record gain. (I think you have a preamp since you use a condenser microphone.)

The closer the recording to the ideal level, and the less processing on the sample later, the better.

But still, if the recording level is too low and there is no way to prevent it, you will also need to perform a noise removal process. Because the level of unwanted noise (eg: "hiss" sound) will also increase. And every subsequent operation/process on the samples will reduce the timbre/clarity of the sound.

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

The display you get the screenshot is linear "Waveform" display.
For "dB" display (logarithmic), you can select "Waveform (dB)" option from the "v" drop-down menu in the picture.
Select-waveform-dB.jpg

In the screenshot below, the -3 dB area is marked yellow and the -6 dB area is marked green.
//"Waveform (dB)".
-3-6.jpg

On the screen where you get the screenshot (default display), this will look like this:
// linear "Waveform"
-3-6-waveform.jpg
(The value "-3dB" is denoted by "0.7" and the value "-6dB" is denoted by "0.5". //approx.)

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

These samples are much better than the previous ones:

But:
In B_5, there is still a sympathetic resonance towards the end of the recording. I don't know if it is caused by other strings that are not well muted or somewhere else.

Also, although you have recorded with a microphone, I cannot hear any ambient sound. This means, to me, that the samples are over-filtered or over-processed. Did you filter frequencies above 6/8kHz?

Is it possible to see a raw sample (or several samples) that has not been normalized (and no other process)? Because in some samples, there is some kind of a bad digital frequency fall-off in the middle. It is not easy to hear, but a familiar ear detects it.

Please don't normalize it to 0 dB. There is an input box in the normalization window. it might be nice to leave a space at the top by entering a lower value of at least 0.9 or 0.85.
But while doing this, make sure that there is not a huge level difference between the raw samples. Therefore, it is important to keep the volume at a certain level while recording.

Once you find the right set-up, then the rest is very easy.
I think you can get a very high quality soundfont as a result of this effort.

In reply to by Ziya Mete Demircan

Ziya,
Thanks for your advice, help me a lot really, very much appreciate.

For sampling links above, I muted string by “left / right fingers” not by cloth.
It’s because I couldn’t find proper size to cut and how to wrap strings.

here is the cloth I want to cut and use.
Appreciate if you could advise how to cut & wrap ;
cloth.JPG

About ambient sound, don’t know if it’s cause by over-filtering. I will put links of raw sample later.
BTW, like you wrote, how can I, (and where can I find) filter frequencies above 6/8kHz? by using equalizer I guess?

Normalize, I always set to -1.0 but I will try 0.9 or 0.85
Is it ok to tick “remove DC offset” ?
normalize.jpg

Attachment Size
cloth.JPG 136.19 KB
normalize.jpg 58.97 KB

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

samplings here ;
these are all "Raw Sample", nothing is edited.
*I'm using volume control via audio interface, "Alesis io2"

F 6th
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ltiqi9zsnwehw31/F_6th_stri_14th_feb.wav?dl=0

B 5th
https://www.dropbox.com/s/phxvtdrelq1ergp/B_5th_stri_14th_feb.wav?dl=0

C 3rd
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vyi4ozok0fvllfl/C_3rd_stri_14th_feb.wav?dl=0

G 2nd
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jvq6m3xjy4xp0g6/G_2nd_stri_14th_feb.wav?dl=0

B 1st 7f
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hz6ww3d85x37si7/B_1st_stri_14th_feb.wav?dl=0

E 1st 12f
https://www.dropbox.com/s/d1syqctlvgt146a/E_1st_stri_high_14th_feb.wav?…

I used yellow cloth to muse this time.
I put the cloth (haven't cut yet) beneath the fretboard so that the cloth is less slippy.
But still I feel some difficulty to mute especially recording middle strings, 3rd, 4th.

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

The quality of these raw samples is better than average.

Especially in thick strings (E and A), a harmonic tone is heard after the middle of the sample.
Play (pick) the string over (or near) the sound hole.
If you are playing (picking) from the exactly half (or quarter) point of the length of the string (the fret you press also reduces the length of the string), then an artificial harmonic is inevitable.

It is getting much better now.
It may be better to use them without any process on it.

Complete the recording of samples and give a link to the beta version of the soundfont.
After that (and if you have permission): By working on this material, I can design many useful sounds from just one set of samples. And it's a nice gift to the users.

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

Hearing harmonics in a normal sample is of course not much desired.

Btw. You can also record harmonics separately. //So we also have a harmonic patch.
especially the 2nd and 3rd and 4th ones are important. *1
1st: 0th pos. //open string
2nd: 12th pos.
3rd: 7th pos.
4th: 5th pos.

*1: The first harmonic is the sound of the open string.

In reply to by Ziya Mete Demircan

OK, I need some help for understanding "bank" and "preset".

In Preset section, I created "CL.Guitar" and "Cl.Guitar harmonics".
Hope it's fine to do like this.
Put "CL.Guitar" to bank 1
Put "Cl.Guitar harmonics" to bank 2.
bank.jpg

But what does this "preset" means? which number should I assign for each of those ?
bank1.jpg

And you wrote,
>it could probably be 024: 025.
What does this 024 / 025 mean?

Attachment Size
bank.jpg 268.46 KB
bank1.jpg 250.52 KB

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

According to the General-MIDI specification, each instrument has a certain preset number with it.
The patch number of Nylon String Guitar is 000:024 //Bank:000 Preset:024

Presets are the main-identifiers in bank 000.
//example: 000:024 Nylon String Guitar
subBanks are alternative and/or similar-sub-sounds of the Main Presets.
//example: 024:024 Nylon Gt. Harmonics

example:

Bank:Preset
000:000 Grand Piano // Main patch
008:000 Grand Piano wide // subBank
016:000 Grand Piano dull //subBank
024:000 Piano+Strings //subBank
025:000 Piano+Strings2 //subBank

 

According to Roland's GS Standard, the 025:024 (uses 1 based counting for Presets; GS standard) is corresponds to a bank named "Velo harmonics" on the Nylon String Guitar patch. (This will be 024:024 for GM;{uses 0 based counting} ) // Bank:024 Preset:024 Velo Harmonics

If we define it like this, at least the subBank may comply with the GS standard and the Main Preset (000) can comply with the GM standard. (And when another soundfont is used in the score where this bank is not available, it will return (fallback) to the main patch..)

Bank:Preset (Standard GS patches) // Preset numbers are written according to GM. 
000:024 Nylon-str.Gt  // Main patch
008:024 Ukulele           
016:024 Nylon Gt.o
024:024 Velo Harmnix  //****
032:024 Nylon Gt.2
040:024 Lequint Gt.

 
mainPatch.png subBank.png

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mainPatch.png 7.28 KB

In reply to by Ziya Mete Demircan

I’m getting !
Several years of big question of Soundfont is being solved in few days conversation..
it’s so amazing how you explain, Thank you so much :)

Shortly, I set bank / preset like this as you suggest, hope its fine.

bank3.jpg

One thing confused me is;

You wrote,
GM (General MIDI) uses ‘0’ bases counting, so Nylon St Guitar preset nr is : 24.
However when I google it,
https://www.midi.org/specifications-old/item/gm-level-1-sound-set

looks like it uses ‘1’ bases counting and Nylon St Guitar preset nr is : 25.

Am I missing something?

Attachment Size
bank3.jpg 156.38 KB

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

I wrote it as I remember it; They use 1-128 as the external representation; but Internal numbering is always 0-127

However, this is what confuses many years between users (GM, XG and GS or Internal numbering and External representation). After all, it seems like I'm confused too. :P

As a result, instead of "GM" there, you can replace it with "Internal Numbering", "0-Based Numbering" . Information is not wrong, but the source is wrongly remembered.

Altough some manufacturers use 1-128 (eg: Roland; GS) and some others 0-127

0-127 representation (for technical reasons) are also used in Soundfont editors and most (old?) MIDI editors. And I have been using it for years

cite (from Complete MIDI 1996-1-3 MIDI 1.0 Detailed Specification page:18)
The ability to reassign programs to a given program change number should be part of an instrument's capabilities. Some instruments number their internal patches in octal numerics. This should have no effect on the numbers used for patch change. Numbering should begin with 00H and increment sequentially. For example, octal 11 would be 00H, 12 would be 01H, etc.


And, yes; The program change and bank change numbers in the picture are correct.
roland.png
screenshot from: R0land SCVA manual

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

My brand new strings is being stable, getting ready to record in coming few days :)

Hereby summery of what I’m going to do ;
*Use RAW sample, nothing is edited / filtered
*sf3 format compiling
*mono recording
*create two sets of sample / normal & harmonics tones

*Tuning : 440Hz
*Range : D2-B5
*Microphone : AKG C214
*Guitar : Kazuo / Kunihiko Ichiyanagi

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

>I’m being very sensitive in sounds, able to hear overtone very clearly, wow
Yes, as we get used to it, the ear (and the brain) gradually specializes.

The starting place of the sample you show in the picture is good.

For technical reasons (for convenience), apply the following setting from the preferences section.

pref.png

Where do you cut the finish:

  1. Delete the noise in the last part of the sample (if any).
  2. Then follow this command: "Effect => Truncate silence: -60dB".

    cut01.gif

This allows you to get good results on average.

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

All settings made in the Instrument section are valid in the Preset section.
Usually, most of the adjustments in the Preset section multiply (or divide) the setting in the instrument section.

examples:

Setting in the instrument section: 3
Setting in the preset section: empty (or 1)
Result: 3 * 1 = 3 (same value)

Setting in the instrument section: 3
Setting in the preset section: 2
The result: 3 * 2 = 6

Setting in the instrument section: 3
Setting in the preset section: 0.5
The result: 3 * 0.5 = 1.5

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

The short answer is: to keep the notes in a closed position.

Open guitar strings do not have the same sound/timbre as fretted string sounds.
Since only one place is reserved for the same note number in a soundfont, it would be better to use notes in closed-position here. // for sound/timbre continuity.

If you want, you can create a separate sub-bank named "open_strings" and add notes of open strings here. example: 016:024 Nylon Gt. open str


additional note: Normally, movable scales and movable chords are played in a closed position. The only exception to this is the bass E string. Whatever we do, this note will always be played in the open position in the standard tuning: e b g d a E.

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

If you want this harmonic sound to be hold, it may be useful to use harmonic sound in another voice.

If the next sound replaces this harmonic then it will be necessary to change the channel with staff-text (right-click) properties.

//It's also necessary to define this sub-channel in a instruments.xml. Currently, only "normal" and "mute" channel options are available for the "Classical Guitar" instrument. We can easily add "harmonic" and "open-string" to it.

When you release the Beta version, I will add all of them, including "CGinstrumens.xml"; be comfortable about this. :)

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

The problem is whether the sound should be where it is heard on the piano keyboard, or should it be on the guitar-fret where it occurs.

I don't really know what the general approach and practice is about this.

I think it should be placed on the guitar fret (position), on which it is formed on a harmonic.
However, this will create another problem: Harmonics will only be able to sound at certain points. And unfortunately, they are not applicable in other frets.

Another way to overcome this is to create two separate patches, one where the sound is heard (artificial harmonics) and the other connected to guitar frets (natural harmonics).

It is necessary to try and see how this will work in practice.

In reply to by Ziya Mete Demircan

Indeed, harmonics notation are problematic..

I’ve seen both ways in printed scores;
*Where it is heard on the piano keyboard
*Where it occurs on Guitar-frets.

So I think it’s depend on publishers.

For our case, I’d like to follow the ways of * Where it is heard on the piano keyboard*.
It’s because I’ve seen this way of notation more often(I believe) than occurring on Guitar Frets.

Let’s see..

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

OK, here I created my first BETA version :D
Hope you like it !
https://www.dropbox.com/s/iex2s3k9brkug1h/Classical%20Guitar%20%27Ichiy…

*Used RAW sample, nothing is edited / filtered
*sf3 format (high) compiling
*mono recording
*create two sets of sample / normal & (natural) harmonics tones
*Tuning : 440Hz
*Range : D1-B4
*Microphone : AKG C214
*Audio Interface : Alesis io2
*Guitar : Kazuo / Kunihiko Ichiyanagi

>After thinking, I did not include open strings bank since I’m not sure if it’s useful..
Any feedback from anybody would be appreciated!

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

Hi Kazuma,
Thank you very much for this remarkable work. I followed this thread from day to day (and thanks to Ziya for the essential help) and I was very impatient to discover this soundfont!
I've just tried it: all in all, it's a big step forward. On the other hand, I don't like sounds to be deprived of any resonance, not really like staccatos, but that's the idea, just so you understand (try this soundfont too, you'll see/hear much better what I mean: https://musescore.org/en/node/300894#comment-977494)
The sound is muffled, like put under a cloth, something like that, or it's kind of like playing with a mute. In a word, it lacks "breath". Now, this resonance is really an essential aspect of the sound of a guitar. So it's a criticism, but I want it to be constructive, I hope you'll understand it :)

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

  • There is a general lack of Hi-Fi. I don't know why this happened.
  • Those from F#3 (15_F#2_4th) to G#4 (29_G#3_2nd) are muffled as if filtered.
  • There is an overflow in the F#3 (15_F#2_4th) and A#5 (43_A#4_1st) samples. // clip occurs.
  • The balances of samples are variable. While this is expected in raw samples, there is a difference of up to 6dB among some; which is too much.
  • The starting points are not carefully cut. The place where the cut is made is beyond the starting point of the sound.
  • If these samples were recorded as sf3 (high), why would the reason for poor quality come from? Previous wav samples were better than these.
  • Also, the length (decay) of the sound is less than expected. In previous raw samples, we were getting a result of around 17 seconds after the "truncate-silence" command. These are much shorter. // In C4 (according to the piano keyboard), the total length is seen as 9 seconds, which is less than expected.

Possible causes of the problems:

  1. Maybe Samples are not recorded in the specified decibel range.
  2. Perhaps the interface between the Microphone and the Computer reduces the quality of the sound.
  3. Maybe the impedance (Ohm) is wrong, or maybe there is a filter system that is not visible to the user.
  4. Does the recording software pre-filter the sound?
  5. Is it really exported as sf3 (high)?

In reply to by Ziya Mete Demircan

Make sure the following is applied correctly:

  • Plug the microphone into the XLR microphone jack.
  • Keep phantom power on.
  • The USB cable is plugged directly into the computer and there is no Hub in between. (just plug into a USB port)
  • Do not use any inserts.
  • Set the input knob on the interface so that it does not light the 0dB led. (Gain)
  • And set the output knob to the same (don't reach 0dB) in the software. (Main Level)
  • Let the input switch be set in analog.

Alesis io2 uses the A-weighted Hz compensation system in itself. There is no way to prevent this.

In reply to by Ziya Mete Demircan

Ziya, ohhh.. that’s very bad to hear... :(
Seems I need to record once again.

I’m sure I’m following what you suggested above, but let check once again.
Pretty sure I complied to sf3 (high) format,
So I don’t know why this lacking of Hi-Fi happened.
I’ll put link to my original wav file of this later, so you can check.

For the next time, (whole new sets of samples),
I will put small Amount of (probably 3-5 tones) links of wav files.
Could you check each of those if these are good enough ?

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

Even if the threshold is at -60dB, -70, -80 or -96dB, the problem is not resolved because decay occurs earlier than it should be.

  1. Perhaps the problem is in the strings of the guitar: These strings may sound like they have lost their vibration feature.
  2. Perhaps the problem is not on the strings but on the guitar: The bridge and soundboard may not have been made well.
  3. Perhaps the problem is in the recording conditions: is the guitar's front soundboard or backboard vibrating freely?
  4. Perhaps the problem is with the material from which you silence other wires. This material must not touch firmly touching the bridge, the front board and the wire you left open.

I don't know the situation (and trueness) of any of these, because I have been telling this theoretically since the beginning of this topic (and without knowing the conditions).

Offer:

Perform a test recording as described below: // Having regard to the items 3. and 4. in the above explanations.:

Take a sample from the 3rd position of each guitar string:
(from the thickest string to the thinnest: G, c, f, bb, d, g)
and additional sounds from the bottom "e" string 8th and, 13th: c, f

This allows us to test a light version of the soundfont we have and hear the quality of the material.

Zip these 8 wav samples and upload to your dropbox without any cutting and or processing.
and share the link here.
I create the beta2 soundfont in an hour from the moment I see the link.

In reply to by Ziya Mete Demircan

My suspicion is nr.2;
Perhaps the problem is not on the strings but on the guitar: The bridge and soundboard may not have been made well.

My main Guitar, Ichiyanagi (made in 2004 Aichi Japan) is relatively small size, very suit to my body size, (yep, I’m small Guy !)
Sweet and ‘Wet’ sounds in my feeling, I love the Guitar.
However, as you mentioned, decay is very rapid especially in treble sounds.
And to play easy, distance between bridge and fretboard is very narrow.
I suspect some tones are touching to fretboard just a little bit because of this.

For the next recording (Beta2), I will try to use my another Guitar, Jose Ramirez (1977)
As you may know, very famous Guitar maker.
Loud, dry sounds and big size. Long sustain especially in treble sounds.

Anyway, after very concentrated weeks, I think I need some rest :)
Ziya, you are my best mentor ever, your advises are all what I really want to know for a long time.
I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

Thank you for the nice words. I was really touched and proud.

Now that you love this sound of your guitar, then this job shouldn't be incomplete. At least I should give you a usable soundfont (with some adjustment and modification on the beta version).

I haven't done a lot of testing, but the timbre of the few pieces I've tested sounds good (based on the sound of this guitar). It was a quick job though, but I hope it works.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QdvYdgN5XpDXg04gE9r23TbtEgGIWeRi/view?…

In reply to by Ziya Mete Demircan

ZIYA! I can’t find the words to express my emotions.. I’m almost crying..
What a GREAT job you did ! (in few hours ?!!)

The fonts / Variations are simply beautiful, so amazing.. :)
Really, I cannot find any words in my poor English vocabulary..
Thank you very much for your remarkable work!!

>For up coming beta2, I will work how to produce sounds with my wife.
She is a classical Pianist / Forte pianist, and very professional how to use body when producing sounds.

How to synchronize my body when producing sounds, my breath, direction of fingers, .. just relax..
Oh, this sounds like ‘ZEN’ :D
What I want to achieve is long decay / sustain in sounds.
Round , smooth with 'breath' in sounds as cadiz told me.

One thing;
I couldn’t figure out how to use (install) KYInstruments.xml..
How can I do this?

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

I am so sorry.
I thought "I should copy and paste your name from sf3 so I don't make a mistake" and wherever I copied it (maybe I copied the wrong place from the place I wrote wrong) and I made a mistake.
I hope it doesn't mean a bad thing when it ends with the letter "o".

I also corrected the file (link) in the previous post. and I made minor corrections in key range in SF2.

Sorry for the inconvenience again.

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

Working slowly as you suggested;

3rd position of each guitar string: G, c, f, bb, d, g)
additional sounds from the bottom "e" string 8th and, 13th: c, f

After several testing, I cannot make decay / sustain long in treble sounds unfortunately, seems it’s my Guitar’s character..:(

Thought about resonance;
in Real life the Guitar, Pluck one string almost always causes resonance (harmonics?) form other strings.
some are wanted and others not.

For example, when I pluck G in 1st string, there is very nice (in my taste) unison resonance from open G in 3rd string.
This is the example sample;
https://www.dropbox.com/s/i3a8utltm2p58c3/G_1st_BETA2.wav?dl=0

I muted strings (2,4,5,6)by using felt but let the 3rd string open.
This as a result, kind of unison sound effect.
I’m not sure if it’s better or not..

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

>in Real life the Guitar, Pluck one string almost always causes resonance (harmonics?) form other strings.
some are wanted and others not.

If the strings are open, you are right.
But in real life, if we use a closed position while playing something or playing chords, this will never happen.

Harmonic: By touching on the string. or because of the guitar string's self-vibration.

Sympathetic-resonance: It occurs when something affects something else.
For example: when the sound of the guitar string vibrates the guitar body, or another string, or ashtray on the table, or something.


Another interesting information: if the frequency of the strings converge at a higher point, a slight resonance may still occur.
example: if the first string's frequency is 4Hz and the second one's is 5Hz, the first common frequency point of these two is 5 * 4 = 20Hz
In other words, the string vibrating at 4Hz will have a small effect at the 5Hz point, the other string vibrating at 20Hz (on its own 3rd harmonic).

For this reason, some instruments have additional open wires called drone to vibrate constantly.

In reply to by Ziya Mete Demircan

Ah! You are right..
But in real life, if we use a closed position while playing something or playing chords, this will never happen.
Then I will mute all strings except the one which I’m plucking for the next samples as well. :)

Thank you for this definition of “Harmonic” and “Sympathetic-resonance”
Very clear explanation as always, you make me smarter and smarter ;-)

Wow.. thanks for this interesting information about frequency!
Ouch.., I’m very bad at understanding mathematical approach, but I (think) understand what you mean..

>About cutting point;
I’m wondering which is the start point of the sound? (1.white vertical line / 2.black vertical line)
The picture waveform (liner) is from previous post’s link, G-1st string.
The waveform has small wave in the first place (white vertical line), then big one (black vertical line)
cut.jpg
Well, I will give you “non-cutting samples” when it’s ready anyway..

Attachment Size
cut.jpg 598.7 KB

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

answer is 1. ( white vertical line) // or somewhere just before (from the full zero point)
Otherwise, we need to (artificially) soften the starting point by increasing the attack parameter so that there is no click at the beginning of the sample.

If necessary, we have the chance to set the 2nd point (or somewhere between the two) as the starting-point in the sound-font editor (with the "sample-start-offset" parameter).

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

These are also good.
But the samples on strings "d", "g" and "b" are a little muffled as if they were played without fingernails.
You better sample these by playing with your fingernail again. Because when these are combined, the difference becomes clear.
Otherwise we will have to soften it all, and this time it will all be muffled.

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

Yes...
If it may have the same timbre as the previous samples, you can record these three samples separately.

If you wish, you can sampling the complete set again so that the timbre is the same.

What is important here is:

Playing the guitar strings with the finger:

  • picking the string from the same place for each one,
  • applying the same dynamic force,
  • and making a sound with the same place of the finger and/or fingernail.

Pressing the guitar-frets:

  • Pressing each guitar fret with the same force and angle. // and if possible with the same finger (this advice applies only to sampling process).
  • (optional) Or you can also use the capo in the 3rd position to be more comfortable (It can be used if it doesn't affect the quality of the timbre).

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

OK, here are samples with fingernail;

2nd string_D
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mpxdqiqdblorc6u/2nd_d_nail.wav?dl=0

3rd string_Bb (two samples)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8wsbgda9m98hv8l/3rd_bb_nail.wav?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1hvsfpa2rt9m0q8/3rd_bb_nail2.wav?dl=0

4th string_F
https://www.dropbox.com/s/i71zq6dgie2tupx/4th_f_nail.wav?dl=0

>using CAPO ! wow, that could be very good idea, never thought about it..
above samples, I used finger to press.

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

I think it has a nice sound with these new samples you made. There are two additional demo-songs in the package.

v2: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1beGdry46EOgGd6oDEAWoz70Eq2w1u3Ub/view?…

I think this version can be released. // Of course if there are no other things you would like corrected.


Also, I added two 12-string Classical Guitar instruments that I created from same samples.
I think it can be useful for playing chords. Each of them has two versions: in default: additional strings are from the upper octave; and in the other (*1): additional strings from the lower octave. It's not a real 12 string guitar. But it has a pleasant timbre. It can be used as a baritone guitar with the lower-octave version.

*1: If you loaded the KYInstruments-v2.xml, it can also be changed with the staff-text (like vibrato, legato). Otherwise, all are already available from the mixer.

In reply to by Ziya Mete Demircan

ZIYA !!! ahhhh no word again !!! SO GREAT!!!!
Really, It’s a superb work!
Thank you so much from bottom of my heart (again) :D

Two nice demo-songs ! I like the music #1 very much. (remind me some old Spanish song)
How did you achieve let ring effect #2 ?? it’s lovely..

WOOOW! 12 Strings Guitar Effect ! Surprise, I like it very much.
Indeed, it is sounding good when playing chords :)

About CL. Guitar2(hi), what this “(hi)” stand for here?

OK, here I have three things I’m aware of;
>CL.Guitar Harmonics,
tones A# to D (Red circled) are not so realistic, more like normal tones.
harm.jpg
>CL.Guitar Harmonics,
tones D# to C# (Blue circled) are little too low in pitch.
harm2.jpg
if needed, I will make samples.

>Open String on 6th E, it has a different timbre and always appearing in Guitar music,
I prefer to hear not digitally modified tone but recored sample.
if needed, I will make sample.

Anyway, Thank you so much for your all effort creating CL sound font.
Please feel free to put this font on your website if you wish.
https://www.hedsound.com

Here it’s rather long discussion thread,
I think it’s better to open up new thread when it will be ready so that interested users can easily find &download.
for that time, I would like to naming not beta2 but ver 1.0

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harm1.mscz 8.58 KB

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

I will answer other questions later. But for now I have enough time to answer only one.
Think Guitar2 (hi) as follows: I used each guitar string for the next string.
So: "E" string for "A", "G" string for "D", etc ...
Thus, each guitar-string became more tense and had more (hi) or (mid) timbre.

I will check the harmonics separately.
I simply reduced harmonics, but a more careful reduction is needed.
I want to admit that I didn't care much about harmonics because I gave my concentrate to new sampling sounds.
I have enough sample voices that you have gave. I'll work on those sounds.

In reply to by Ziya Mete Demircan

AHHHH Fantastic job Ziya..!!
THANK YOU SO MUCH, you are my hero really..
Yep, harmonics tones which I mentioned are all fine tuned.
You are so great :D

>As I mentioned in previous post, I prefer real sampling tone for open E on 6th string
since it has different timbre.
And if my ear listening correctly, this E tone is still modified one.
Or do you think it’s preferable to leave as modified one?

Maybe to use this sample? (same one as beta1 which I sent you already)
Open E on 6th string
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mnpkrfqbayge0i5/1_E1_6th.wav?dl=0

>Just my curiosity;
you are compiling to sf2 format, not sf3.
I thought sf3 is improved version (well compression) than sf2.
What is the reason to compiling to sf2?

Thank you so much :)

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

Well, the current question is:
I had adjusted the sound range lower than normal (up to C) so that it can be used on guitars with different tuning(s).
Will all the notes under this E-string sound open-stringed?
For example, how will someone using this low guitar-string in D tuning get the closed(fretted) E sound?
What does the open E sound mean for someone using the D, a, d, g, b, e; or C, e, g c, e, g; or D, a, d, f#, a d; or D, g, d, g,b, e tuning?

As we talked before: I think a separate sub-bank is required for open string sounds.


I use sf3 only in the released version and next to sf2. Because there are software that use sf2 soundfonts and cannot use the sf3 format (If you want this soundfont to be available with other software).

Also, if you are constantly working on a soundfont and opening and closing the same file, you have noticed that you cannot comfortably work in sf3 format. I don't think it is useful to extract this as sf3 until it is released.

Also, sf3 is nothing different than sf2 in terms of parameters. The correct name for that format should be sf2z (or something similar), but it's too late.

In reply to by Ziya Mete Demircan

Ah, I got the idea why you are using modified low-E.
True, if someone uses altered tuning, contains of Low-D or even Low-C, no sense to make only Low-E opened.
I think I will sample open strings sounds (sub bank) for next version :)


Got the idea why you are extracting to sf2 for now.
Ah, so you extract to sf3 for coming releasing version:)
I didn’t know that sf3 only be available to MuseScore..

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

Hereby I attached “CL_Guitar_Release” text file.
This will be the new thread for “Classical Guitar ‘Ichiyanagi’ ver1.0 Release”
Please check and feel free to correct / add something if you want to.

Please put the link of releasing version of the CL Soundfont in the txt file via
Google drive or probably from your sound font website in case you put it there :)

Attachment Size
CL_Guitar_Release.txt 1.28 KB

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

I understand why you feel this way about the low-E string.
Because this E string's sound disappears faster than a-string and therefore is not strong enough (the same is true up to the G# note).
This may be due to the string's material, perhaps sampling conditions; I don't know exactly, but this is the sampling we have.
For this reason, I mixed the fretted sampling with the open-E string sampling and made this range a little stronger. // I think I found a midpoint between these open and fretted samples.
In addition, I made a subBank based on the open-E sample. // like imitation, but so-so for now.
You need to make a final review on this soundfont.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mGYDJM5xPMIn9vJue5Lo4XkZUWyetnDa

In reply to by Ziya Mete Demircan

Ziya, mixture of samplings !! you really can do anything..!
sooo Amazing.

This mixture of fretted sampling with the open-E string sampling is much stronger &present sound.
I definitely like these (Low-E up to Low_G#) more than previous version!!

And wow, open strings sub bank! very cool, thank you for doing this :)


ALL RIGHT! I think It’s a time to release!
Could you please put the final version of link?(change to sf3 extracting?)(Google Drive)

Small adding / changing I did;
* Added CL Gt open_str in the description.
* Change the file name KYInstruments-v2.xml to KYInstruments-v2_1.xml in the description.

Attachment Size
CL_Guitar_Release2.txt 1.3 KB

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

Congratulations, we are finally at the release stage. :)

You can open a new topic and link to this web-page.
https://www.hedsound.com/2020/03/classical-guitar-ichiyanagi-custom.html

If there is anything you want to add or remove to the content on the web-page, write it in this topic and I'll fix it.

I think we have a very positive, beautiful and productive collaboration. And I was very happy with this process.

In reply to by Ziya Mete Demircan

Congratulations too!!
I’m so happy to reach this point.:D
WOOOOW ! our Soundfont on your website looks so great…!!
THANK YOU SO MUCH for doing this!! :D

And I listened to your demos … ahhh incredible…!
So Beautiful… spanish (Flamenco) Jazz like…
Not only satisfying with the level of the product, but I also enjoyed all the conversation with you.
All the things you told me are really my treasure.


Actually I talked with Kunihiko Ichiyanagi today about this Soundfont project (well,he is not that much familiar with this field, though) by phone.
And he was very much happy to our activities.
I went to their workshop several years ago to repair my (their) Guitar. :)


Three things I need to point out about this soundfont page
https://www.hedsound.com/2020/03/classical-guitar-ichiyanagi-custom.html

  • The picture of Kunihiko / Kazuo Ichiyanagi is owned by Fana (Classical Guitar seller)
    http://www.fana.co.jp/index.html
    and he(kunihiko) advised me to better not use this picture (owner is a little bit difficult person, he told me).
    Sorry for this…
    Instead of this, can you insert my photo? I attached the file.

  • In the description of Kazuo Ichiyanagi,
    I asked Kunihiko if his father is ever called Kazuo Toshi, and he said no.
    So write down his (Father) name literally Kazuo Ichyianagi

  • I’m pretty sure Kazuo (Father) is still working as luthier, I talked with him(father) on the phone today.
    So write down something that they are still working together as luthiers.

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kazprof.jpg 93.05 KB

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

Ahhh!

About surname and brand name confusion: The accuracy of the information we find on the Internet is always questionable.

About picture: I copied that picture from a public guitar forum. I never thought that image was owned.
I removed the picture in question.
Although there are some photos of them on getty-images website, I couldn't use it because it is copyrighted.

In order to put your picture, I had to make some edits on the webpage: I had to extend the annotation, and place the paragraph about you further down. Because it would be strange that I couldn't put your picture in the paragraph of the Luthiers description.

I also corrected other information.

:)

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

Hi Ziya,

I’ve been getting excellent feedback from friends about CL sound font..!
This is REALLY amazing work…Thank you so much :D

>Small Update (my small achievement :) ;
In CL Guitar Harmonics,
Tone of Harm 076 (used as D#4-E4) sounds very different compared to nearest tones, Harm 074,078.

harm_prev.jpg

So I removed Harm 076, and used Harm 074 also for D#4 (andD4), used Harm 078 also for E4 (and F4,F#4)

harm_after.jpg

Please check the link below, named v 1_03
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bogmumeibyy02jc/Classical-Guitar_Ichiyanagi-v…
I didn’t (well, couldn’t) touch any other advanced settings, (omg,so much complex settings you did wow..)

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In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

I guess this is not a felt type (multi purpose) cleaning cloth, just a thin (instrument) cleaning cloth.
If you have two of these (one for the upper and one for lower strings), you can use it by folding the cloth in "z" or "w" shape (or if the cloth is too thin just roll it) and insert it between the strings.
example: -v-v- - -v- <=Dashes indicate wires. The v-letter(s) indicate folded cloth.
Simply: Fold the cloth somehow enough. And place (insert) it between the strings you want to mute, near to the bridge.

About normalization:
Yes, it's good to set as -1dB.
According to Audacity's "linear" settings, I said 0.9 or 0.85, which is equal to -1 dB approx.

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

Not that, I think that he advises you about recording level before any processing.
Without normalization, It would be better to record the peak level of about 0.7 - 0.5.
If you have next recording opportunity, please try to record more louder level.
so you will get more better result.

--
そういうことではなくて,彼は,録音時のレベルについてアドバイスしてくれています.
ノーマライズも何もしない状態で,ピークレベルが 0.7 - 0.5 になるくらいの音量で録音するとよいでしょう.
(注: ノイズ対策や,音の振幅分解能などの点で,処理前の RAW サンプルの時点で,もっと大きい音量のほうがよいと私も思います.0.2 以下になってしまっているのは小さすぎると思います.ノーマライズで引き伸ばして大きな音を作るよりも,最初から大きな音で録音しておいたほうがよいです.)
もし,また録音しなおすことがあったら,もう少し大きな音量で録音するようにしてみてください.
(現状のままでも十分な品質があるのかもしれませんが,)そのほうが,よい結果を得られると思います.

In reply to by jotape1960

The intruder.
I followed this conversation, impressed by your skills and dedication, although I don't play and I don't know about music, that superficially. My hope is that, on the other side of the pond, someone can use and appreciate your remarkable work. That's why I reported the news there.
And, snooping around the web news, I was intrigued by the Chitarra battente. A previous instrument to the guitar that we know of. So here are a couple of links, in case you ran out of distractions ;-)
https://www.marcellodecarolis.com/differenze-strutturali-tra-chitarra-c…
https://www.cordaminazioni.com/i-nostri-strumenti/chitarra-battente/
Congratulations and thanks for your efforts.

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

I can't reply to your last message. Because the forum gives an error.

replyError.png

I fixed the harmonics as you mentioned.
There are some explanations about other (unexpected) problems under the download link on the website.

eg: dropout occurs on some samples in the sf3 version of v1_02 ...
I noticed when I downloaded the soundfont from the download link you provided in the latest message.
This issue was also fixed in version 1_03.

In reply to by kazuma yamamoto

Ziya,
What do you think about adding tap(percussive sounds)subbank ?
tap.jpg
I think it's very usefull for solo guitar when it's having percussive sounds.

I recorded these by tapping(some are by nails) several places of my Guitar.


For my code learing experience(I'm super beginner!),
I tried to create xml file by editing your xml file (KY instruments2_2).

This version, I named KYinstruments-v2_3

I added line of code for 'tap' in Nylon Guitar section.
I made value="7" is it ok ?

I also added the subbank tap (set the bank no '7') in the soundfont by editing our newst version,1.03 from your dawnload link.
Very roughly done, but it sounds pretty cool in my taste !

I named v1.1beta


here is the link;

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wxacoqjrtiu1bq4/AAA_plnw-cZlzHrbAflmH3Oua?dl…

contain of
contain.jpg
Feel free to edit it when you have some spare time :D

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