Musescore 4 midi latency
I'm new to Musescore and installed latest version of Musescore 4. When inputting notes via my midi keyboard I get horrible latency, making it impossible to enter even simple single note phrases. As I've seen in other posts, it only occurs in Musescore 4 - I also use Cakewalk by Bandlab and have no latency, even with lots of complex VST instruments loaded (Kontakt, Toontrack, Ample Sound, etc.).
I installed Musescore 3 version (64-bit): 3.6.1.515740707, revision d0fc8e9 and get NO latency.
I do get a slight audible "click" on note release when in midi input mode, but not when out of input mode - weird, but I can deal with it.
Guess I'll stick with 3 and hope a future release of 4 solves the latency issue. :^(
Hardware:
Win10 Pro 64-bit
Intel i9-10850K @3.60GHz, Comet Lake 14nm, 10 Cores
ASRock Z490 Extreme4 Motherboard
128GB RAM
(2) 2TB Samsung 970 EVO Plus NVMe Drives
(1) 2TB Samsung 860 EVO SSD
(1) 4TB Crucial CT4000MX500SSD1 SSD
Focusrite Scarlett 8i6 3rd Gen
Intel UHD Graphics 630
Arturia mkII Keylab 88
Comments
Normally there shouldn't be any appreciable difference for ordinary note input. But, I have seen some reports of issues using the Scarlett device specifically. What happens if you connect directly?
In reply to Normally there shouldn't be… by Marc Sabatella
Thaks Mark. I'm new to Musescore - what do you mean by "connect directly"? In I/O all I see is a choice of System Default or Focusrite USB Audio. Either setting produces the same latency.
In reply to Thaks Mark. I'm new to… by SoriceConsulting
I mean, disconnect the Focusrite from your system entirely, then plug the keyboard directly into a USB port on your computer, and see if that works better.
In reply to I mean, disconnect the… by Marc Sabatella
Thanks, but even if that works it’s not a viable solution. Guess I’m stuck on version 3 until the latency gets fixed.
In reply to Thanks, but even if that… by SoriceConsulting
Can you explain why it wouldn't be viable? Also, is there a special reason you need to use MIDI for input instead of simply using the computer keyboard normally? It's usually more efficient anyhow.
Right now it's not understood why some small percentage of MIDi interfaces introduce additional latency with MU4, so in order for the developers to be able to address it, they'd need to understand more about how to reproduce the problem (for me it works exactly as MU3, for example). So it's vitally important those who experience the issue help in isolating what triggers it.
In reply to Can you explain why it… by Marc Sabatella
I'd rather not have to disconnect/reconnect my Focusrite to use MU4. Not sure how to find out what triggers the latency. All I know is that MU4 is the only thing that has the latency issue. If you have any suggestions as to how I can try to find the cause please let me know - I'm an absolute newbie to Musescore!
For input, I'm a pianist, so just playing in the notes I want is easy. I haven't even tried using the computer keyboard, but not sure how that would be better.
In reply to I'd rather not have to… by SoriceConsulting
Disconnecting the Focusrite just to test is that is the variable here - the thing different about your system compared to most - would be useful You can then connect it again. but at least then we'd know if it's the Focusrite driver that is the issue here - something about it not working well with the libraries used in MU4 (which are different from the libraries used in other software, including MU3).
The reason computer keyboard input is normally more efficient is that you can get correct spelling of accidentals right away. The flip side is, you do sometimes need to fix octaves, but in that case you have audible feedback, plus it is very easy to predict when you'll need it. All in all, it ends up being very similar, but still for most use cases, it is measurably faster to use computer keyboard, and for the few where MIDI can have a win, it's very very slight.
In reply to Can you explain why it… by Marc Sabatella
Hello,
I'm having the same issue with a Mac Mini M1, Focusrite Scarlett Solo and MU4.
I bypassed the Focusrite, changed output to Mac Mini speakers and still had latency. Using an Impact LX 49 keyboard controller with USB connected to a hub that is then connected to the computer. The Focusrite is connected directly to the computer.
If I have Logic Pro open at the same time, there is no noticeable latency with its playback. I hear the Logic instrument first, followed by the MU4 instrument.
Any other info/testing needed for development troubleshooting?
Thanks!
In reply to Normally there shouldn't be… by Marc Sabatella
I've used two different keyboards and they both have up to a third of a second of latency. It is Musescore's problem :/
Notation software is not like other audio software. You will need to tune you computer to MU4. MU3 is light weight in comparison. It appears that you do a lot of music work. I assume that you know how to get to the advanced settings for your audio devices. If so, try unchecking "Exclusive mode" and dropping the bit rate a notch or two. I had to do this with my Focusrite. I had to do some of these thinds in Sibelius, also.
In reply to Notation software is not… by bobjp
Marc and bobjp,
First - I am no MIDI expert at all - I'm an IT guy who does Server/Workstation stuff. DAW stuff is still a new world for me, Sorry!
I tried disconnecting my Focusrite 8i6 (3rd gen) and other experiments. Ended up with no sound out of MU4. Fired up MU3 and all was fine. No latency - and got sound.
I'm probably doing something wrong (not the first time :^).
Not sure what to try or do, but it looks like MU3 is my best option until a new MU4 version is released.
In reply to Marc and bobjp, First - I am… by SoriceConsulting
With MU4 open, go to Edit>Preferences>I/O and make sure the audio device you are using (be it onboard or Focusrite) is selected. Onboard my show up as Default. After that, don't plug in or un plug anything. If you use headphones make sure they are plugged in before you open MU4. This Software work fine on my less powerful than yours, system.
And make sure you have the latest drivers for your midi keyboard.
In reply to With MU4 open, go to Edit… by bobjp
Thanks. Drivers are all up to date. Did a PC restart, opened MU4, checked to be sure in IO that it was set to Focusrite (or System Default, they both yield the same result). Buffer set to 1024. Opened a blank Piano score. Made sure Toggle Midi Input was active, Pressed N and played a few notes. Noticeable latency.
Opened MU3 and no latency.
In reply to Thanks. Drivers are all up… by SoriceConsulting
Try using Basic sounds instead. In my system using my Yamaha, there is almost no delay. Try using your keyboard sound. then try MuseScore sound, and see if it makes any difference. Not a fix, of course.
In reply to Try using Basic sounds… by bobjp
Thanks, but nothing has helped. I'm just going to stay on MU3 for now.
Hi ! I have the same issue! I've already plug my Midi keys directly to my Macbook Pro. But it still the same result!
And, I realise that it's the Buffer size plays a huge role with this latency issue!
Unfortunately, MuseScore 4 only have 3 options. even the lowest one (1024) still got a latency.
Perhaps by adding a lower buffer size than 1024 will fix the Midi latency. (e.g. 512 , 256 & 128)
**I just know this because I set to the highest buffer size (4096) and my feeling of that latency just like a delayed flight 😂 .
Im using M2 chip Macbook Pro, 1TB.
In reply to Hi ! I have the same issue!… by samjaissen
Same issue. M1 MacBook. It doesn't matter if I'm using MIDI input or the computer keyboard for input. There's audible (and visible) lag when entering notes. It doesn't matter if I'm using computer speakers, headphones, or an external interface. There's about 200ms latency from the time I press a key to the time I hear it.
My work-around is to turn off audio output in MuseScore, and use the audio from a different playback engine when I'm recording MIDI notes. Works great every time.
I'm wondering if it has anything to do with the number of VSTs on my system? I do have a boatload of them, and MuseScore isn't actually using any of them.
In reply to Hi ! I have the same issue!… by samjaissen
Same MuseScore 4.1 MIDI latency problem here on my MacBook Air M2, 2TB, 24GB RAM. It makes note entry in MuseScore 4 quite annoying. But that's okay. Due to WAY too many V4 issues I work exclusively in MuseScore 3.7, tho0ugh occasionally I peek at MS4 to see if there are improvements and to explore and use new features like Partial Capo and Muse Guitars.
Regarding VST comment by OP, I encountered the MIDI latency long before I started using Kontakt or other third party VST libraries.
It's quite astonishing that so many people are experiencing this problem which can really be a deal breaker for many people and yet it hasn't been addressed.
I'm at a crossroads now - not sure if to abandon MS for Dorico/Sibelius or hope that it gets fixed soon. Either way, I'm in midst of a semester studying composition and this literally adds hours to my workload.
In reply to I'ts quite astonishing that… by jonathankraka
Have you tried the 4.2 beta yet, which has a number of optimizations around this?
In any case, I’m not understanding how a slight MIDI latency adds hours to anything. For one thing, if you are concerned with efficiency, you’d be using step time entry in the first place rather than messing with real-time. And even for step-time, the computer keyboard is usually at least as efficient as MIDI.
So, I’m not saying it wouldn’t be good for you to test the beta to see if the change improve the situation on your system, or that further improvements shouldn’t be considered as well. I’m just trying to help save you hours of your time by advising you on more efficient workflows.
In reply to Have you tried the 4.2 beta… by Marc Sabatella
Hi Marc, I did try 4.2 Beta, the problem isn't solved.
The keyboard is a problem for chords, Alberti bass and the like when writing for piano. It requires extra steps to write something that can be played in seconds on midi.
The system works well for me and for many others who use midi as part of their workflow, I understand that it isn't important to you.
Thanks
In reply to Hi Marc, I did try 4.2 Beta,… by jonathankraka
It's not a question of whether it is important to me or not - like I said, I'm just trying to help you get back the hours you say you are losing. i absolutely guarantee, you can enter music as fast if not faster with step-time input, computer keyboard or MIDI. So if you're truly concerned about saving time, why not give it a shot? might take a little practice if you're not used to it, so don't give up if your first attempt isn't quite as fast.
Couldn't this be the same latency you would get in MU3 when not selecting the ASIO driver
which you can't select in MU4? You can only select the device in MU4 but not the driver...
In reply to Couldn't this be the same… by oMrSmith
I am getting very bad latency on a Macbook Pro M3, same on my previous intel MBP with MU4. It is really bad.
Needs to get sorted out PLEASE!
I just use my Logic sounds for real time input by muting MU4 and unmute for playback. No latency on MU3.
Marc - it does waste time and makes you feel you are working on an unfinished piece of software - much as I LOVE MUSESCORE!
I don't know anything about Musescore 3 because I just subscribed a few days ago and Musescore 4 is the first version I've ever used. But I have the same issue as everybody here, a lag that is not extreme, but still noticeable. These are my specs, but, this lag occurs even if I connect other I/O devices, like a Qudelix T71 and a 5K DACs, all of which don't have any latency in Cubase, or when using standalone players like Kontakt or Opus.
Also, 98% of the times I open Musescore, when I close the app, it crashes. It works fine, but it crashes when you quit it.
I am experiencing the same lag issues in MuseScore 4.2.1 whether I enter notes via my MIDI keyboard (Yamaha MOXF6) connected directly to my MacBook Air M2 (macOS Sonoma 14.2.1) or enter the notes directly using the computer keyboard. So in my situation, both methods have a very noticeable lag. If I press a piano key, MuseScore triggers the instrument sound a few milliseconds after I release the piano key. And when entering notes via the computer keyboard, the same thing happens. I tap on any letter A–G and the sound triggers a few milliseconds after I release the computer keyboard key. It is very noticeable in both situations.
Any advice will be appreciated on how this can be resolved since it happens utilizing the suggested method of entering notes via step method, which I have.
In God's Harmony
MuseScore does not have an input function that meets the ordinary definition of real-time note input. And while the MIDI controller latency is quite concerning I can't use MuseScore's real-time input because it's essentially unrelated from the normal; and established concept of playing to a metronome, via a MIDI controller, and turning the result into plausible notation.
If I want to record in real-time to a metronome fortunately I can do so in other notation apps and in Logic Pro, then export to MusicXML.
That said, the ~.5 second lag between mouse click and note playback is very annoying. And there are a chorus of voices on this forum that agree.
Would be great to see these timing issues addressed. I continue to check new features and report 4.x bugs but for production and editing I use MuseScore 3.7 Evolution.
scorster
In reply to As MuseScore does not have… by scorster
Hmm, are you saying that simply clicking on a note causes a perceptible lag? That's not normal at all. Could be something to do with the unique configuration of your audio system. Worth posting more details so others with similar hardware / software configurations can try to help debug what is going on with your system specifically.
In reply to Hmm, are you saying that… by Marc Sabatella
Hello, Marc. I have troubleshooted various scenarios, and all have a delay. And, yes, just clicking on a notehead with the cursor, a delay is noticeable at about half a second or more. The delay is almost exactly of the same length regardless if a notehead is clicked directly, a letter key is pressed on the computer keyboard, or a key is pressed from the piano keyboard controller. Even when the Yamaha is turned off and disconnected, the delay is still noticeable.
I don't see anything in my audio system configuration that would cause this. I'm not using a hub, or an audio interface at this time. Here is my setup and gear:
•MacBook Air M2, 16 GB, Sonoma 14.2.1, 250 GB SSD (APFS)
•Yamaha MOXF6 (connected directly via USB to computer)
•MuseScore version (64-bit): 4.2.1-240230937, revision: d757433
In God's Harmony
In reply to Hello, Marc. I have… by rawsaxy
Great, then the next step is to wait for those others who experience the same issue to also post their system details, then you can all start comparing notes and brainstorming things to try in the effort to determine what makes your systems so differently from all the rest where things work smoothly. Hoepfully, at some point, one of you will discover the specific setting or other factor that is triggering it - what causes your system to work differently from most others - and then report that back to the developers.
In reply to Hmm, are you saying that… by Marc Sabatella
> are you saying that simply clicking on a note causes a perceptible lag?
Yes. With MS4.x there's about a half second lag between clicking and note and hearing it.
And there have been many reports and confirmations of this:
https://musescore.org/en/node/339154
In reply to > are you saying that simply… by scorster
There are many things I've learned over the last year or so. The OP here had a problem on his Windows computer that was plenty powerful, but had a noticeable delay on note input from his midi keyboard. There is an annoying delay when I hook up my Yamaha. But I don't use it for note input. Only to experiment. And that delay is different depending on whether I'm using headphones or built in speakers. It is less with headphones. Which is interesting because they are cheap wired earbuds. Which brings me to the first point I'd like to make.
In Windows, every audio device that is hooked up has separate settings available. Involving bit rate, exclusive mode, and default. These are outside of MuseScore. Add an audio device, and the same adjustments are possible. All three should be checked, if needed, and adjusted separately. It doesn't make any difference how powerful your computer is. Things may or may not need to be adjusted.
That brings us to Macs. I know nothing about how to adjust them or even if it is possible.
Mac users are reporting that there is a delay just clicking a note. All I can say is that on my system there is no delay. None. With the Yamaha, yes. But just clicking a note, no. Does anyone have any information on Mac audio devices? I've done some looking around and can't really find anything. I think it might be useful for everyone if we could find something about this.
In reply to There are many things I've… by bobjp
Hi bobjp, what exactly would you like to know about Mac audio devices?
On a Mac system, if you want to see what devices/gear are/is connected to the actual computer, you would go to two places: Audio MIDI Setup, and System Settings> Sound. Both will show what devices are connected, if any, to the actual computer, and any audio routing, if any. In my particular case, since at this time, I am not using a hub or an external audio interface, no special audio routing will be present since the piano/keyboard is connected directly via USB to the computer. As stated before, even with the piano/keyboard turned off and disconnected from the computer, there is an audible delay just entering notes directly from the computer keyboard (letters A–G), or merely clicking a note head with the cursor.
Something else I've come across while leaving the MuseScore app open is that if for any reason the computer goes into sleep mode, or I am using another app for a while and come back to MuseScore, MIDI input from the piano/keyboard no longer works and I must turn off the piano/keyboard then back on again for MuseScore to recognize it. Sometimes I also must go into MuseScore Preferences> I/O change the Audio Device and MIDI Input to something else and change it back to what it was for it to work again.
I understand most users have stated they rather not use a piano/keyboard for input, but for me at least it's a lot faster to press a piano key for a pitch (making it faster for me to get the correct octave, and even complex chords/voicings, even 7+ simultaneous notes) and press a numeric key on the computer keyboard for the note value. But once again, even when not using a piano/keyboard, I still experience an audible delay just clicking on note heads and pressing pitch letters from the computer keyboard. At this time, I'm not concerned about real-time input, just inputting in step-time, which is what I'm doing now.
In God's Harmony
In reply to Hi bobjp, what exactly would… by rawsaxy
All Windows audio devices, including onboard devices, have bit rate and exclusive mode setting. These settings probably won't help midi keyboard lag, But they can help playback in general. If the computer meets or is close to the needed specs. These settings are true of Sibelius, also. I am wondering if Mac has any similar setting.
And, MU4 doesn't like to be put to sleep.
Just started using Musescore 4 and am experiencing the lag.
William Allegro II keyboard (connect via USB to computer)
Musescore 4.2.1 Revision d757433 API level 420
Edition Windows 10 Home
Version 22H2
OS build 19045.4046
Experience Windows Feature Experience Pack 1000.19053.1000.0
Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-7200U CPU @ 2.50GHz 2.70 GHz
Installed RAM 8.00 GB (7.73 GB usable)
System type 64-bit operating system, x64-based processor
I don't see options for setting bit rate and exclusive mode, i.e. doing a search on these terms in Settings returns nothing
In reply to Just started using Musescore… by allelopath
I don't think any settings will help midi keyboard lag very much. But there are plenty of settings that might help general playback.
https://musescore.org/en/node/339915
Instead of using the speaker icon in the taskbar, you could also go to the Control Panel and select Sound.
In reply to Just started using Musescore… by allelopath
And now I've just discovered that copy/paste still doesn't copy/paste time signatures. I have little incentive to use 4, so I guess I'm going back to 3.
In reply to And now I've just discovered… by allelopath
The incentive is vastly better engraving and playback.
Same for me. Musescore 4.2.1, windows 11, i7, with 32G ram. M-Audio Keystation 49ES MKIII. Lags when using Musescore, no lag when using Pro Tools. Direct connection to the USB port. Audio interface is not part of the equation here. And to whomever said adding notes via the computer keyboard is faster than using a piano keyboard, umm...no.
This should be a P1 bug fix.
Have the exact same problem with version 4 on my Macbook Pro M1. I find it quite funny how some argue this isn't a problem or what it's been designed for. Good grief - it's a bug and should be fixed as I'm sure it matters to many. I deleted version 4 of the s/w and installed the last version of 3 and that latency issue is gone. If half the time spend arguing that it shouldn't be important to us was spent looking at the code change history, maybe, just maybe, the problem would be solved LOL
In reply to Have the exact same problem… by rg2135
I know, right? I am not talking about being able to enter midi notes in real time like a DAW, either (although that should be there too), but just being able to hit a key and have the note play without lag when adding to the staff. I am just a beginner at this, but I can't image any working composer would look at that and go, "...that's ok." Does Sibelius or Finale have that kind of lag? I doubt it. If this worked in 3.x and is broken in 4.x, that's an inexcusable regression.
In reply to I know, right? I am not… by bill0287
Again, for the vast majority of users, there is no discernible difference. I believe you when you say there is on your system, but until the people experiencing this system gather together to compare notes about aspect fo their system is triggering this specific hardware, settings, or other apps on their systems - it won't be possible to make progress on figuring out a solution. That's why it is so important those experiencing the problem share these details and do their own investigation - trying different things in terms of changing settings, closing other apps, etc - so that progress can be made. Only the handful of people experiencing this problem are in a position to be able to do this, so I do hope all of you who see this will participate in the effort!
In reply to Again, for the vast majority… by Marc Sabatella
My set up couldn't be more simple:
-no midi device connected - just using the Mac's keyboard to enter notes
-Macbook Pro M1 with 16GB (no external anything connected to Mac)
-no other apps running after a fresh reboot
-with a midi controller connected, the delay issue is exactly the same. Devices tested include M-Audio KeystationMini32 MK3 as well as Yamaha P515 with identical results. In this config, connection is via USB from midi device directly to Macbook.
Latest build of 3 has no delay issue.
Latest build of 4 does have the delay issue.
Doesn't matter if headphone are used or sound is coming from Mac's built-in speakers with headphones removed.
Changing the setting for Audio buffer size (in Preferences/IO) from 4K to 2K and to 1K reduces the delay in seemingly proportional steps. At 1K buffer size, delay is still an issue but not as bad as at 4K.
I'd say there is a very good starting point for the investigation given the results from that simple buffer size test in an absolutely bare bones H/W scenario. Hopefully proactive developers will take notice of this problem and start working the issue with the information provided.
In reply to Again, for the vast majority… by Marc Sabatella
What settings can be changed? There is almost nothing in the I/O section of the program other than buffer size which can only go down to 1024? I don't know what else there is to change. I have done similar to the above.
I have no lag when using Pro Tools or Studio One with everything being the same.
In reply to What settings can be changed… by bill0287
Buffer and bit rate are not the same. Buffer needs to go up. Bit rate needs to go down.
In reply to What settings can be changed… by bill0287
Not settings in the porogram - settings on your system. Apparently some specific setting for your audio device or some other software on your system is interfering with the normal operation of MuseScore. My hope here is that those users experiencing this can compare notes and figure out what their systems have in common that makes those MuseScore not perform as well on those few systems as on others. And either finding a workaround by changing the relevant settings, and/or passing the info on the trigger on to the developers to try to find a fix within the code.
Cross posting from my reply to the relevant thread on github (https://github.com/musescore/MuseScore/issues/16112)
Some more measurements vs buffer size:
My setup is garageband recording a loopback from another track synthesized by garageband, as well as the output of musescore. I built from source and added more buffer size options, all the way down to 32. The reported number is the time delta between the audio produced by garageband (always first) and the audio produced by musescore:
4096: ~440ms
2048: ~290ms
1024: ~210ms
512: ~160ms
256: ~140ms
128: ~120ms
64:~110ms
32:~110ms
Note: The baseline delta between garageband recognizing midi input and garageband synthesizing an audio sample is ~60ms. So all the numbers above should have 60ms tacked on to get an "absolute" delay from the time you press the key (practically speaking).
I'm using a Scarlett 2i4 on a mac pro M1.
For a ~2x improvement, simply reducing the value of MINIMUM_BUFFER_SIZE in audiotypes.h to 64 would do the trick. However, IMO 170ms is still an unacceptably distracting amount of latency. Something else needs to happen as well.
For concrete numbers, if we take GarageBand's 60ms as acceptable, then the goal would be to get under 60ms for MuseScore.
Update: I measured Musescore 3 and found it to be in the 60-70ms ballpark (time from garageband registering a midi event to time MS3 produced a sound)
Summary (time from midi event to audio):
MS3: 60-70ms
GarageBand: 60-70ms
MS4, buffer size <=128: 170-180ms
MS4, buffer size = 1024: ~270ms
In reply to Cross posting from my reply… by Tyler Mullins 2
Tyler, those are significant numbers. I'm not sure what was changed, or why, in MuseScore 4.x that is causing such a difference from version 3.x
I posted my findings and current experience in this thread and read many posts dating back quite some time. I came across several comments stating that they do not hear a significant delay from the time a note is either entered or clicked on. Right now the debate seems to be between what is considered an acceptable delay and what isn't.
I'm curious if there would be a way to have a well-synchronized video with audio of some of those who state they have no delay in their system, seeing and hearing when a note is entered or clicked on so that those of us who do hear a significant delay can compare. It could be a question as to how each individual perceives delays or their tolerance or acceptance of any.
Unless notes are played in real-time in an acoustic environment with no audio reflections, there will always be some delay, as minimal as it may be perceived. And even then, depending on the acoustics of the environment, greater delays might be quite noticeable.
In God's Harmony
In reply to Tyler, those are significant… by rawsaxy
I agree. As a software engineer, I'm trying to push this as far into the realm of the empirical as possible.
I urge other people to take measurements and provide their own numbers as well. People simply stating that they don't hear a noticeable or bothersome delay, without quantifying the delay numerically, is not very helpful.
For what it's worth, apparently 60ms is "good enough" for me. In my experience with midi buffers in the past, I would've expected ~30ms to be my cutoff, but I regularly practice piano on garage band and it hasn't been prohibitive.
In reply to I agree. As a software… by Tyler Mullins 2
How are non "software engineers" supposed to obtain numbers of that precision?
In reply to How are non "software… by bill0287
In any DAW, you should be able to record a midi track along with an audio track, and then measure the time delay between the midi signal and the audio signal.
Just for kicks, I installed MuseScore version (64-bit): 3.6.2.548021803 and tried it without changing a thing. There is no noticeable latency when pressing any key on the midi keyboard. Zero. It's beautiful.
There is nothing wrong with my system or my setup, there is something wrong with MS4. What, I don't know.
In reply to Just for kicks, I installed… by bill0287
No one has suggested there is anything wrong with your system. Just that there is something unusual about it - some quirk that happens to trigger an issue with MU4 that doesn't happen on the vastn majority of systems that don't share the same quirk. It could well be there is a bug in Mu4 only seen on systems with your specific configuration, or it could be there is a bug in the OS that is only manifested in certain apps that use certain OS features - it's really impossible to say without more information. That is we keep imploring people to actually post system details and start comparing. No progress can occur until people start taking these steps to help. So pelase, if you care about seeing a resolution to this, do the things we are asking.
In reply to No one has suggested there… by Marc Sabatella
I am happy to provide any details that might help. Here is the basic configuration. What else would be useful? What other tests?
Dell XPS 8960
Windows 11 Home 64-bit (23H2), OS Build 22631.3155, Intel 13th Gen i7-13700
NVidia GeForce RTX 4060 Ti 8GB Graphics
32GB RAM
1TB SSD system drive
7200 RPM internal recording drive (2TB)
Musescore 4.2.1
Presonus Studio 1810c interface
Also Present:
Pro Tools (latest version)
A handful of VSTs
A few other minor apps, that's about it
What is the evidence that the "vast majority" of people don't see an issue? Is it just the small sampling of people who have reported that they have an issue, or something else?
Update:
Basic Sound fonts have almost no lag. Musesounds and VST have some.
Interface settings:
- Sample rate 44.1KHz
- Block Size 256
In reply to I am happy to provide any… by bill0287
Yes, most people don’t report any problems and are using MU4 very happily according to their own reports, and those of who have tried to reproduce problems on our own systems have failed.
The additional info that would be useful are you actual audio device settings. And then look at other reports as they come in and compare notes and try to work together with other affected users. There really isn’t anything I or anyone else not experiencing the problem can do. those of you experiencing the problem really need to start working together. So start asking each other questions. There isn’t anything the rest of can do. So no need to ask us question - you need to discussing this amongst yourself to try to figure out the unique qualities of your systems and brainstorm ideas to try.
In reply to Yes, most people don’t… by Marc Sabatella
i added some more info above
In reply to Yes, most people don’t… by Marc Sabatella
I get latency in MU4 with Mac OS Sonoma 14.3
MBP M3 Pro 18Gb Ram
I also get the latency just clicking a notehead.
see video here which compares sound from logic vs sound from MU4 from same keypress
on USB midi keyboard
https://youtu.be/x4R3rAa4hzM
that video is with biffer ay 1024. Lag is even greater with bufer at 4096.
also get this same latency when
logged in as different user AND
when mac booted in safe mode ie no 3rd party extensions loaded
nb also noticed it on previous machine
(Intel MBP running Big Sur) when upgraded to MU4 from 3
No latency in MU3.
Think it is a MU4 problem. Are any Mac Users not getting this latency?
In reply to I get latency in MU4 with… by tommybanana
Whew! This is an active thread! I am the thread Author and haven't used MU4 in a while (too frustrating). I recently made a bunch of tweaks to my PC to improve DAW performance (Cakewalk by Bandlab, buffer settings at 96 samples). I'll fire up MU4 again and let everyone know if anything has changed. As stated previously (see original topic post) I don't have any issues with Kontakt, Toontrack, Spitfire, etc. No latency at all. Also, no latency with MU3.
In reply to Yes, most people don’t… by Marc Sabatella
Marc are you saying there are Mac users who are using MU4 and definitely not getting the latency we are getting on the same OS versions and similar machines?
In reply to Marc re you saying there are… by tommybanana
What I'm saying is this thread is a great place for those users who experience this to compare notes to see what the common denominators are. If it turns out you discover that the issue affects all users of some specific version of macOS, or some specific model of Mac, are being affected, that will be great information to then be able to to report to the developers. That is why, again, it is so crucial that those users experiencing this share data about their systems and compare notes, as I've explained this over and over.
In reply to What I'm saying is this… by Marc Sabatella
I understand. I think people are trying to respond to your requests by posting their system info.
What I am trying to establish is - are there any Mac users who 100% DO NOT get this lag on a Mac and havent noticed a difference since MU3? It may be something that some people don't really notice due to their workflow so they aren't reporting it.
It would be helpful if there were Mac users using MU4 who definitely aren't getting the lag we are - if they could post here.
It feels like an MU4 issue not a system or set up issue - why?
1) It starts immediately on installing MU4 and it disappears when you revert to MU3.
2) It happened on both my Macs - very different machines M3 Silicon running Sonoma vs 2018 MBP Intel running Big Sur - in exactly the same way. MU4 - lag. MU3 - no lag.
3) No lag on any other audio software.
4) Happens in safe mode - so no 3rd party drivers installed.
Here is comparison video of Mu3 vs MU4 on same machine.
https://youtu.be/prlsxZ8obx8
BTW I appreciate very much you engaging with us!
Best
Tom B.
In reply to I understand. I think people… by tommybanana
Again that would be a great thing for the people experiencing the problem to discuss amongst themselves. There is no reason to keep asking questions to those of us not experiencing the problem on any of our systems. If you want to find more Mac users to ask, start a new thread with a title that they will likely check out, ask on social media, ask your friends - whatever makes sense. We need your help, for you to engage with each other to help gather more information and find the connections that those of us not experiencing problems are completely unable to assist with.
So again, it's great that people are posting info. Now please start discussing amongst yourselves to brainstorm common elements you notice, experiments to try, etc.
In reply to Againk that would be a great… by Marc Sabatella
Here is video showing MU4 lag just using QWERTY keyboard for note entry ie no MIDI.
https://youtu.be/5_xTePLHEOw
PS I have started a new thread to find Mac Users NOT experiencing lag!
In reply to Here is video showing MU4… by tommybanana
@tommyBanana
Thanks for illustrate the issues many of us face with MIDI and note input latency in MuseScore 4.
• comparison video of Mu3 vs MU4 note input via MIDI keyboard on same machine.
• a video showing MU4 lag just using QWERTY keyboard for note entry
I suppose there's a slight bit of latency due to you cordless QWERTY keyboard, but it shouldn't be anywhere near that much.
> PS I have started a new thread to find Mac Users NOT experiencing lag!
I didn't see your post, which I hope is a poll where Mac users can vote and we get a running tally on the state of latency on MacOS.. Please add a link here so it's easily found.
Would be good to see a Windows user poll too. Today I asked a Windows developer if he notices a delay between note-click and sound in MS4. He said, Yes. At first he thought the note was sounding on mouseUp, but then noticed it occurres slightly after his normal mouseUp speed.
Here are some cross post links regarding audio latency with QWERTY note input, Click-entered notes, Note-Click, and MIDI controllers
• Soundplayback after note input noticeably delayed #16112
• High latency with MIDI input, no audio output API selections (i.e. ASIO) #15354
• MuseScore 4 — Delayed sound on clicking a note
• MIDI Input Lag - Issue has still not been fixed after 6 years
• And here's a Google collection on the query: musescore delay click MIDI
scorster
In reply to @tommyBanana Thanks for… by scorster
I want to caution against anything as informal as a poll or tally - these will invite subjective reports that are of no value at best, and confusing at worst, if they propagate the idea that only some users are experiencing latency, if in fact ALL users are experiencing it, but some do not notice it or are not bothered by it. These two situations call for very different investigations.
As I've stated elsewhere in this thread, any "negative" reports should be substantiated with measurements.
In reply to @tommyBanana Thanks for… by scorster
"PS I have started a new thread to find Mac Users NOT experiencing lag!"
"I didn't see your post, which I hope is a poll where Mac users can vote and we get a running tally on the state of latency on MacOS.. Please add a link here so it's easily found."
Here: https://musescore.org/en/node/361093
In reply to Here is video showing MU4… by tommybanana
Your video appears to show a slight latency indeed, but you are using Msue Sounds, which MU3 didn't have.
But also, just looking at one note individually isn't really relevant to real-world note input. People had been claiming there were problems so bad it made it next to impossible to actually input notes ("unusable" is the term I hear from some). So, that's the demonstration that would be useful, to understand what is going on that actually makes note input difficult. A video showing real-world note input somehow becoming unusable.
In reply to Againk that would be a great… by Marc Sabatella
Marc, I disagree with your logic. You are suggesting that there is a group of people who, were they to repeat the measurements using the same methodology I laid out (or recording a video) would get different results (specifically, latency in the ballpark of 60-70 ms, vs my ~170 ms measurement). I am skeptical of this claim.
To make it very explicit, there are only two possibilities (assuming you believe the measurements that I have provided, and the other forms of evidence such as the delay present in tommybanana's video):
You are assuming scenario 2 is what we're dealing with, but I have yet to see any empirical evidence of someone using MU4 with "no" (<70ms) latency. There are claims that some people don't experience any latency, but as tommybanana pointed out, that can be explained by those users' workflows, and until at least one of them provides evidence to the contrary, scenario 1 will remain the more parsimonious explanation.
So I believe at this point, if we want to get to the bottom of the issue, we need someone who is claiming not to experience any latency to reproduce the measurements I did, or upload a video like tommybanana.
In reply to Marc, I disagree with your… by Tyler Mullins 2
I don't know about numbers. What I am saying is that there is very definitely a group of users - myself included - who simply don't notice any difference. Maybe it would be possible to measure one with sufficiently well-calibrated tools, but that seems totally beside the point The point in this thread aren't talking about differences so minuscule that one needs fancy tools to detect them. They are talking about obvious differences that are big enough to make working with MU4 difficult compared to MU3. That is very plainly not true for the vast majority.
So it may well be that there is some measurable but small difference in latency across the board, but that for most people, that difference is so small as to be undetectable. For others, it appears the difference is so large that it makes MU4 difficult to use. And that is what we are trying better to understand - what unique properties of some subset of systems makes this difference in latency so much larger that it is actually problematic.
In reply to I don't know about numbers. … by Marc Sabatella
Marc what are your system details? Can you post a comparable video to mine?
In reply to I don't know about numbers. … by Marc Sabatella
Marc, are basing this on the basic sound fonts, or MuseSounds, or VST sounds?
In reply to Marc, are basing this on the… by bill0287
Soundfont mostly of course - otherwise it’s not apples-to-apples. Muse Sounds is marginally slower. But again, you’d have to really go out of your way to detect any difference. It’s so minute it’s just not anything that in any way whatsoever affects the use of the program. But some people apparently experience something different, and that’s what we’re trying to get to the bottom of.
If people would take the same energy they are currently spending arguing with those trying to help, and instead redirect it to actually doing the things we are asking you to do, probably this could have been solved long ago.
In reply to Soundfont mostly of course -… by Marc Sabatella
Marc , I don’t feel like I am arguing with you. I feel you are definitely helping. I am just trying to find out if anyone is using a Mac and definitely NOT getting latency. We still haven’t established that.
In reply to Soundfont mostly of course -… by Marc Sabatella
Agreed. Sound fonts make a difference - I wish people would specify what they are testing with. I prefer to write using Musesounds, and it is more laggy than sound fonts. I also listen with a bluetooth speaker on my laptop, I think that adds to the lag too (I have no ports for headphones). But I see the lag on my main system with an audio interface, too.
With all due respect, we are trying to help. We are discussing the information here. We are sharing system information. People are going so far as to add video proof. This thread provides a nice set of historical data that can be referred to. There is no need to "go off and discuss amongst ourselves" - that is what we are doing - on the main Musescore support system.
So far you seem to be the only person on the thread saying there is no issue - I do wish others would speak up if they are not seeing a problem.
What I would like to know is what is the dev team doing about it? There already is an issue: https://github.com/musescore/MuseScore/issues/16112
In reply to I don't know about numbers. … by Marc Sabatella
This sounds pretty dismissive. To put these numbers into a perspective that everyone in this thread will understand:
250ms = 16th note at 60 bpm - this is trivially within the ability of anyone who has ever been involved with music to both play and hear
125ms = 16th note at 120 bpm - this is pretty easy to drum your fingers to
94ms = 16th note at 160 bpm - this is the drumbeat to Wipeout
Everyone who has posted numbers or a video are experiencing latency greater than 125ms. This does not require "sufficiently well-calibrated tools" and it isn't beside the point at all. Unless we can assign numbers to the phenomena being described, the developers working on the code have no hope of reproducing the issue, let alone fixing it.
And I don't know if you saw my post above where I actually built MU4 from source (a time consuming task), so that I could add the option to reduce the buffer size below 1024 - which eliminated, at minimum, over 100ms of latency - but as someone with over 10 years of experience debugging software involved with measuring realtime signals, usually in the microseconds or nanoseconds range, I can guarantee you I'm not wasting my time scrutinizing miniscule differences here. I'm trying to establish the baseline severity of the problem emperically.
In reply to This sounds pretty… by Tyler Mullins 2
Perhaps yours is the sensible solution. I don't understand by the buffer size minimums out at 1024. Seems like that in itself is a problem. I would like to see them produce a beta version with more buffer sizes that we can all test with.
In reply to Perhaps yours is the… by bill0287
Sorry Bill, I was replying to Marc. I'm not fluent in how these replies get stacked up under each thread / user.
I agree, the buffer size is its own issue which should be (and can be very simply) addressed.
I thought this thread would have been appropriate for us experiencing the issue since the topic is relevant to us. I think starting a different thread will still welcome comments from those wanting to comment, even though they may not be experiencing the delay. Of course, all comments would be welcome of anyone trying to help.
In God's Harmony
Running Win10 with a Komplete Audio 2 interface I hear no difference between MS3 and MS4 in regards to latency when using the MS Basic sound fonts.
What I do hear, however, is a small increase in latency in MS4 between the Basic and Musesound fonts. The Musesound fonts, violin at least, seem to start each note with a fast crescendo which makes them sound like they are late.
Hi there,
I’ve just seen the comment pointing this thread under the bug report.
I wonder if it is in fact accurate that most people don’t experience this issue or they just can’t be bothered to report. I was certainly experiencing a debilitating delay on my pretty bare-bones configuration — M2 Macbook Pro with no external interface, just an Akai LPK25 keyboard and the latest MacOS, latest MS4, etc, while no perceptible delay in MS3.
I solved this problem by purchasing Sibelius, so don’t really require assistance anymore, but happy to provide more info or run tests if it helps this issue move forward.
Cheers.
In reply to Hi there, I’ve just seen the… by musescore@xcvii.net
I think this is a likely scenario. Some folks might try a midi keyboard, see the delay, then go, "Well, that sucks", then abandon the keyboard and move on. Not everyone is proactive enough to report and track concerns.
In reply to Hi there, I’ve just seen the… by musescore@xcvii.net
I tested my system again and MU4 still has very noticeable latency with my Arturia mkII Keylab 88. It's unusable. MU3 - no latency at all. I recently did some latency tweaking and can comfortably use my DAW (Cakewalk by Bandlab) at a sample rate of 96 with multiple instances of Kontakt, Spitfire, etc. VSTs. No latency at all.
My specs:
Win10 Pro 64-bit
Intel i9-10850K @3.60GHz, Comet Lake 14nm, 10 Cores
ASRock Z490 Extreme4 Motherboard
128GB RAM
(2) 2TB Samsung 970 EVO Plus NVMe Drives
(1) 2TB Samsung 860 EVO SSD
(1) 4TB Crucial CT4000MX500SSD1 SSD
Focusrite Scarlett 8i6 3rd Gen
Gigabyte GeForce RTX 3060 Gaming OC (rev 2.0)
Arturia mkII Keylab 88
In reply to I tested my system again and… by SoriceConsulting
Did you test this with Muse sounds or sound fonts?
....
In reply to Marc , here's a video you… by tommybanana
Well, yes, MuseScore was never designed for real-time performance, and MU4 in particular is not well-suited for that at all. But that's entirely unrelated to what is being discussed here, which is about note input. If you want to play your keyboard in real-time to experiment with ideas or just have fun, use its built-in sounds, or a program designed for real-time performance. Then use MuseScore for note input. But this thread is about problems some people are apparently experiencing with actual note input that somehow makes it unusable for that purpose - the purpose for which MuseScore is designed.
In reply to Well, yes, MuseScore was… by Marc Sabatella
Sorry Marc - I fundamentally disagree with your take here. We may need to agree to disagree!
Musescore is score writing software for composers and arrangers isn’t it? . I have been using this type of software professionally for 35 years going right back to Notator. I have also used Encore , Igor, Logic, Sibelius , Dorico, and Finale. None of them ever had this kind of latency issue that I can recall.
No one is talking about real-time performance here. We are talking about the act of composing and arranging. Serious latency interferes with one’s ability to complete these processes on a fundamental level and MU4 is currently only useable with clunky workarounds depending on other pieces of software - which for me ( and apparently others) makes MU4 not a viable like for like replacement for Sibelius and Finale which in every other aspect of its functionality it seems to be both the aspiration and the reality.
I think MU4 is really very good at it - apart from this issue - easily as good as the mess AVID has made of Sibelius and I also very much like the ethos and values of the way the software is developed.
You a) aren’t experiencing the problem and b) may not have a workflow that would be affected but with respect I don’t think it is helping trying to tell people it isn’t either a problem for them or something MU4 should be reasonably expected to do ie allow note input without latency.
Finally - I don’t think this thread is about significant latency making actual note input impossible or not , it is about significant latency being off putting , distracting, annoying, and it making working very difficult.
Disagreement notwithstanding thanks again for your care and attention to the issue!
In reply to Sorry Marc - I fundamentally… by tommybanana
I'm not sure what sort of "take" you are disagreeing with. I wasn't expressing opinion but fact. MuseScore was not designed for real-time performance - fact, not opinion. The issue being discussed is about note input, not about real-time performance - fact, not opinion. We all know MsueScore 4 isn't good at real-time performance e - that's obviously true for everyone. What we're still trying to get the bottom of is why some people are also having a problem with note input that makes the program unusable for the purpose for which it was intended. That is the only and only reason this discussion exists, and it would be good to focus on that.
At this point, it should seem pretty evident that the main reason this goes nowhere is people keep wasting time arguing with those of us trying to help rather than actually working together to figure out what is going on - who is talking about real-time performance instead of note input, who is talking about Msue Sounds instead of soundfonts, what the actual nature of the issue as it pertains to note input is, what OS, audio devices, settings, and other possible conflicting software is involved, etc.
Since it appears that despite my repeated please, people are more interested in arguing with those of us trying to help than actually working together to investigate, I'll be leaving this thread, as arguing with the people I am trying to help is not what I volunteer my time for here. If at some point people do decide to start working together to figure things out and actually come up with something, please report the findings over on GitHub so the developers can take over the investigation from there.
In reply to I'm not sure what sort of … by Marc Sabatella
I am really sorry you are leaving Marc. I am trying to clarify what is making this hard for the people posting here not give you a hard time.
In reply to I am really sorry you are… by tommybanana
If you ever look at this again - I think I may have misunderstood what you meant by real-time performance. If by that you mean the ability to play notes with a certain rhythm and hear them as if playing an instrument when using MU4 then you are right I am talking about that - and it is the the effect on that of the latency that is making MU4 difficult to use with my workflow. I believe maybe that is what most people who are experiencing the latency as being a problem are saying and therefore maybe the main topic of this thread. If we could clear that up it might make this discussion less adversarial.
Feeling bad about Marc leaving I read over his posts (and the rest of the thread). So I tried reducing the buffer size and changing the sound source and got much better latency than my previous videos:
https://youtu.be/R95wSz1YQbI
Here is a video on how to change those settings:
https://youtu.be/mLwe1_lP218
Could it be better - YES. Is it as bad as it was - NO.
Sorry Marc!
Best
Tommy B,
Hopefully this article is helpful
https://audioproductionroom.com/audio-mixing-guides/midi-guides/how-to-…
I think when I was first testing this, I was not using an audio interface, and my audio was coming out to bluetooth speakers, not wired. I think that had a big impact on the lag. I am going to redo my tests again using wired headphones and audio interfaces instead of onboard audio. And also compare Musesounds to basic fonts.
In my recent test, I changed the Muse Sounds to Soundfonts, and now there is no delay/lag when entering notes from the computer keyboard or clicking on a note head with the cursor, but there is still the same lag when entering notes via a MIDI keyboard/controller. Also, the same issue whenever the computer wakes from sleep mode, of having to go back into MuseScore Preferences> I/O >Audio >Audio Device and having to select something else from the list and put it back to system default, even though that's what is initially selected. Not sure why this keeps happening.
(My setup is described in my previous posts.)
In God's Harmony
Here is my most recent test matrix. Sorry it doesn't format great,
I was not entering notes but just tapping the keys to get a sound.
The bottom line is that using Musesounds results in unusable lag when using a keyboard. Basic Font is much better in that the lag is not really interfering. Even VST sounds are usable. Sad too, since I really like to work in Musesounds.
Since I can't play a keyboard, I am slow to begin with, but the keyboard cannot generally keep up with faster playing (unlike my pro tools setup).
It seems like MU's "real time midi input" is true... in a sense, but maybe expectation are too high.
It appears that maybe this is also part of the problem:
https://musescore.org/en/node/334295 (ASIO driver support)
Sound Card Output Device Buffer Size Sound Font Exclusive Mode Format Noticeable Lag When Striking a Key
Internal Realtek Internal Speaker 4096 Musesounds No 24bit, 48000Hz Yes
Internal Realtek Internal Speaker 2048 Musesounds No 24bit, 48000Hz Yes
Internal Realtek Internal Speaker 1024 Musesounds No 24bit, 48000Hz Yes
Internal Realtek Wired Headphones 4096 Musesounds No 24bit, 48000Hz Yes
Internal Realtek Wired Headphones 2048 Musesounds No 24bit, 48000Hz Yes
Internal Realtek Wired Headphones 1024 Musesounds No 24bit, 48000Hz Yes
Internal Realtek Internal Speaker 4096 Basic No 24bit, 48000Hz No
Internal Realtek Internal Speaker 2048 Basic No 24bit, 48000Hz No
Internal Realtek Internal Speaker 1024 Basic No 24bit, 48000Hz No
Internal Realtek Wired Headphones 4096 Basic No 24bit, 48000Hz No
Internal Realtek Wired Headphones 2048 Basic No 24bit, 48000Hz No
Internal Realtek Wired Headphones 1024 Basic No 24bit, 48000Hz No
Internal Realtek Internal Speaker 4096 VST3 BBC No 24bit, 48000Hz No
Internal Realtek Internal Speaker 2048 VST3 BBC No 24bit, 48000Hz No
Internal Realtek Internal Speaker 1024 VST3 BBC No 24bit, 48000Hz No
Internal Realtek Wired Headphones 4096 VST3 BBC No 24bit, 48000Hz No
Internal Realtek Wired Headphones 2048 VST3 BBC No 24bit, 48000Hz No
Internal Realtek Wired Headphones 1024 VST3 BBC No 24bit, 48000Hz No
Audio Box 96 Wired Headphones 4096 Musesounds No 24bit, 48000Hz Yes
Audio Box 96 Wired Headphones 2048 Musesounds No 24bit, 48000Hz Yes
Audio Box 96 Wired Headphones 1024 Musesounds No 24bit, 48000Hz Yes
Audio Box 96 Wired Headphones 4096 Basic No 24bit, 48000Hz No
Audio Box 96 Wired Headphones 2048 Basic No 24bit, 48000Hz No
Audio Box 96 Wired Headphones 1024 Basic No 24bit, 48000Hz No