Ahh Choir vs. Choir Aahs
The default mixer sound for voices in Version 2.0.2 is "Ahh Choir". To me that sound is more like a solo voice rather than a choir. The old "Choir Aahs" is still on the mixer, but when I change the voice on the mixer to "Choir Aahs" it plays just fine locally, but when I upload it to MuseScore.com it's like the voices have been muted...they are completely silent. Is this a bug, or should "Choir Aahs" been deleted from the mixer for Version 2.0.2 (FluidR3...sound font) because it sure seems it doesn't recognize it to play it at MuseScore.com.?
Comments
Wheter it is "Ahh Choir" or "Choir Ahh" is down to the soundfont being used, as is the particular sound that goes along with it. If you see both, most likely you are using 2 soundfonts
And musescore.com only supports the default soundfont. A score that uses sounds from a different soundfont won't play as expected on musescore.com.
In reply to And musescore.com only by Marc Sabatella
Ok, so is there any hope of getting a better sounding "Ahh Choir" on the default soundfont? Sort of like the "Mellow Yamaha Grand Piano" was such a great improvement over the original "Yamaha Grand Piano"? Maybe it could be named "Full (or Large) Ahh Choir".
In reply to Ok, so is there any hope of by hmscomp
"Better" is subjective. Viritually all voice sounds in virtually all soundfonts sound terrible to me, but the ones in FluidR3 seem to me better than most. And as you know, to my ears, listening through decent quality headphones, the "mellow" piano could just as well be called "muffled" - it is quite lacking in high end and hence probably only sounds good through cheap computer speakers. I'm happy to see the default soundfont provide multiple options for those who prefer them, but there is pretty much no way you will get any random 3 people to agree on what is "better".
In reply to "Better" is subjective. by Marc Sabatella
Ok, forget "better". How about "more like a choir and less like a solo".
In reply to Ok, forget "better". How by hmscomp
It is of course possible. My concern is, if we added variants every time someone subjectively said they wanted something different, the soundfont would get bigger and bigger with no real end in sight. This kind of defeats the whole purpose of allowing multiple soundfonts in the first place. As far as I can tell, the only problem here is that msuescore.com playback doesn't match what you hear on your computer, but that's a much more general problem than this - it also extends to people wishing to use more esoteric soundfonts, etc. I think it better to address the problem at its source - finding a way for musescore.com to accept multiple soundfonts or custom-generated mp3's - rather than to try to patch each specific case of someone wanting another sound.
In reply to Ok, forget "better". How by hmscomp
How about "on pitch?" I'm sorry, I love almost everything else about the improvements in 2.0, but I cannot find a vocal sound font that is both loud enough for me to hear over the other instruments and on pitch. The "Ahh choir" is a fairly good impression of a really bad singer, but that's not quite what I want...
In reply to How about "on pitch?" I'm by AFlatMinor
Is there a particular note you think is out of tune? Do you think it is sharp or flat? it's kind of hard to make out the pitches sometimes because of the effects applied to the sound, but I don't notice anything obviously out of whack. The effects on the voices are what make the sound awkward with msot soundfonts, which is why I tend to just substitute instrument sounds for voices normally.
In reply to Is there a particular note by Marc Sabatella
Yes, it is the effects. I guess it's trying to imitate someone scooping, sliding, or settling into a note (same problem with most of the new string instruments, too, actually), and so when I listen to four-part harmonies I've written the chords just don't hit the pitch right in the middle, and they sound badly tuned. It's a problem so many vocalists have that I'd hoped artificial voices would never start imitating... but anyway, it's not a huge problem, because the other two vocal soundfonts don't have this issue, but the problem with them is that they're too quiet even when I turn them all the way up. And most of the time I can't use other instruments because I want to distinguish them from the other instruments. I guess I'd like one more like the Synth Voice but louder.
In reply to Yes, it is the effects. I by AFlatMinor
Like I said before, I'd recommend the Trumpet soundfont. It's loud and clear and completely in-tune.
In reply to Like I said before, I'd by trevers18
I'll try it, just hard not to mix it up with the actual trumpet.
In reply to I'll try it, just hard not to by AFlatMinor
If you're using another trumpet, just try to make the "vocal" trumpet louder so that they don't blend together.
In fact the vocal sounds in FluidR3Mono are on my list for eventual replacement.
IME most soundfont choir sounds are depressingly bad, probably because they used synthesised samples rather than recorded ones.
The problem is, however, sourcing good quality samples with the appropriate licensing to replace the existing ones.
I did wonder about using the choir samples from the Sonatina Orchestral Library, but they are also not up to scratch IMO.
Added to that the current work on a new Clarinet, together with scoring work I have to do for a musical production in October mean that I wouldn't advise you to hold your breath.
If, of course, you would like to have a go yourself, please feel free. - it is very definitely a case of "many hands make light work".
In reply to In fact the vocal sounds in by ChurchOrganist
FWIW, the soundfont I have heard that *do* use real vocal samples usually don't sound very good to me either, probably because of how familiar we are with the sound of the human voice and not getting the transients right sounds artificial no matter how good the samples. That is, a person singing two notes consecutively does not sound like two consecutive recordings of a single note in ways that are maybe more *noticeably* true for the voice than for other instruments (where it might be just as true objectively). So in some ways, a synthesized (or at least, sampled then highly processed) voice can sound less noticeably "off", which might be why they are so commonly used.
Also, I am very sorry if I come off as criticizing your work, which I know must be the case. I do appreciate everything you have put into improving FluidR3. In particular, I really *am* glad there are multiple options for piano, and given that you were specifically taking on the issue of some people finding the default piano sound too bright, and the only thing you had to play with was EQ, it stands to reason the result would sound muffled in comparison.
Here are examples of the same composition. The first made on the old V1.3 with "Choir Aahs" the and second on V2.0.2 with "Aah Choir":
https://musescore.com/user/24069/scores/246621
https://musescore.com/user/24069/scores/1914431
The piano sounds much better in the V2.0.2. version, but the voices are just not in tune.
In my opinion, it's better to just skip the choir soundfonts all together. "Synth Voices" is, in my opinion, the best of the three options (there's also "Ooh Voices" but it's just as bad as "Aah Choir"). Whenever I need to use voices, I just use the Trumpet soundfont on the vocal instruments. It's loud enough to hear over all other instruments without seriously messing around in the mixer and it's always on pitch. The only REAL issue is that it's not too great with really low bass notes, but then you can just use the Trombone soundfont to remedy that.
In reply to In my opinion, it's better to by trevers18
What I don't understand is that MS was able to add the "Mellow Yamaha Grand Piano" to the FluidR3 sound font for those of us who prefer a less "bright" sounding piano, so why is it impossible to add the "Choir Aahs" to it? I wish Marc Sabatella would comment on that.
I tried the "Synth Voices". They're better at being on pitch, but too much of an electronic/synthesized sound for me. As a former choir singer, substituting brass instruments for voices is just too great of a "work-around" for the problem. Sorry.
In reply to What I don't understand is by hmscomp
Marc is unlikely to comment on that as it is beyond his area of expertise.
Up to now I have been the only person to make improvements to the default soundfont, mainly because I have the tools and prior sound design experience to do it, but also because noone else has stepped up to the plate.
Mellow Yamaha Grand Piano was made by modifying the samples of the existing FluidR3MonoGM Yamaha Grand Piano preset.
The reason that the TimGM6MB Choir Aahs cannot be added is because the licence for Tim Brechbill's soundfont is unclear.
MuseScore 2 is issued using the GPL Version 2 licence. Consequently any associated soundfonts, and the samples contained within them bundled with the installation have to be compatible with that licence.
Also on a scale of 1 to 10 the choir samples from TimGM6MB rate about zero in terms of quality, and there is little point in replacing bad samples with bad samples.
Added to that, work on replacing the clarinet is not yet finished.
If you really prefer the Choir Aahs from the old soundfont then there is nothing to stop you installing TimGM6MB alongside FLuidR3Mono and using the mixer to choose the sounds.
I will get to replacing the choir sounds eventually.
In reply to Marc is unlikely to comment by ChurchOrganist
My initial posting to the Forum on August 3, 2015 was that I had gone back to the Choir Aahs from TimGM6MB. The playback worked locally but when uploaded to MuseScore.com the voices were silent. Marc Sabatella's reply on the same date was,
"And musescore.com only supports the default soundfont. A score that uses sounds from a different soundfont won't play as expected on musescore.com."
Has that changed?
In reply to My initial posting to the by hmscomp
no
In reply to Marc is unlikely to comment by ChurchOrganist
Hmm, what would you use to set choir parts in then?
In reply to Hmm, what would you use to by mirabilos
I'm just using "Ahh Choir" and am happy with it.
In reply to I'm just using "Ahh Choir" by Jojo-Schmitz
Yes, I agree.
And this is my very little "contribution" (Please, use the FluidR3Mono_GM.sf3 soundfont file).
In reply to Yes, I agree. And this is my by jotape1960
Agree to what?
In reply to Agree to what? by Jojo-Schmitz
Oh, Sorry!!!
I forgot to write that I agree with the better human choral sound from the FluidR3Mono_GM.sf3 soundfont file, instead the "standard" GeneralUser GS MuseScore v1.44.sf2 soundfont file.
In reply to Hmm, what would you use to by mirabilos
EDIT: This question wasn't for me lol
In reply to What I don't understand is by hmscomp
Indeed, soundfonts are not my speciality. I'll just add that I would still like to someone to explain which specific note or notes they think are out of tune in which specific sound. I tried playng around and didn't hear anything obvious - just the basic chorus effect causing all pitch and attachs to sound mushy, which is how most synthesizers deal with voice to make up for the fact that it is going to be impossible to get it to sound natural within the limitations of MIDI.
In reply to Indeed, soundfonts are not my by Marc Sabatella
It's just not one or two notes. Listen to the attachment which is the V2.0.2 Aah Choir version and compare it to this: https://musescore.com/user/24069/scores/246621 which is the old V1.3 Choir Aahs version. Can't you hear the difference in all the voices?
In reply to It's just not one or two by hmscomp
I hear a difference betwene the old soundfont and the new, sure. but I don't hear anything as being out of tune - just a difference in tone quality. I prefer the current version over the old, but to each his own.
To each their own, of course, but as a former choir member as well, I don't see the issue. With some dynamics you can easily get a choir sound using the Trumpet soundface. It's actually surprisingly good at blending like a choir. I used trumpets for all three of my a capella arrangements and they all blended as I wanted them to.
I know artificial voices are always gonna be weird no matter what, so it's a good effort... basically I think the less weird the better, but the least weird ones are the quietest.