In search of the one Grand Piano Soundfont to rule them all *PLEASE HELP*
Hey guys, this is kind of embarrassing for me, but im a first-time poster and I have had MuseScore for a few months now. I'm REALLY dead set on making my own compositions, but for this one original work I am trying to do, I hit a snag....
I want to create a piano piece. I have this BEAUTIFUL melody in my head, beautiful chords, everything! It's already about a verse or so completed score-wise, but there'd just one problem...i'm not satisfied with the quality of the Piano. it doesn't sound realistic enough with any SF2 I have tried! My composition isn't that complex--at least, no more complex than say, "Good Company" from Oliver & Company (From which i'd say my song draws at least some inspiration.) However, no soundfont I have come across gives the piano a full, rich stereo sound like what I desire. I need something that sounds REAL. Not a keyboard, not a yamaha. A real, honest to God old timey grand piano, so I can fully bring out the tenderness of the song. Each one I try is either too muffled, meaning that even with the volume up it sounds like it's in the next room, or like a yamaha keyboard with an overriding sense of synthesizer to it. I'm looking for a nice, high quality sound that allows you to HEAR the elegance of the piano, not just imitate a similar sound.
I've tried SF2's from all around, and still cannot find the sound i'm looking for....is this too much to ask of museScore? If so, what program should I consider? It is imperative to me that I bring this song to life, and while I understand we're dealinf with synthetic music here, I know there are ways to achieve what i'm after.
ANY help would be GREATLY appreciated. :)
Comments
Shoot!! I didn't mean to post twice! I wanted to edit, Sorry!! x.x
Shoot!! I didn't mean to post twice! I wanted to edit, Sorry!! x.x
You have tried all the ones from https://musescore.org/en/handbook/soundfonts#list ?
In reply to You have tried all the ones by Jojo-Schmitz
I have, but as far as .SFZ, musescore can't seem to recognize .SFZ files no matter what i try :( I know it's supposed to but it won't for me.
In reply to I have, but as far as .SFZ, by Matt Edwards2
You have to be on the "Zerberus" tab, not the "Fluid" tab, of the Synthesizer dialog. And apparently the soundfont can't have spaces in the names of any of the files within it. But Zerberus definitely works . If you continue to have problems, please say exactly at which step something goes wrong: what you are clicking, what you expect to see happen, what happens instead.
In reply to You have to be on the by Marc Sabatella
When I ask muse score to install it, it says it can't recgognize the file type. This is without even having the program open.
In reply to When I ask muse score to by Matt Edwards2
How are you asking MuseScore to install the soundfont if ypu don't have MuseScore open? That doesn't make sense. There are two ways of installing a soundfont. Either open MuseScore and go to View / Synthesizer and press Add then select it, or else double click the soundfont from Windows Explorer or Finder or Linux equivalent, which is asking you *OS* to install it, and if you see an error message there, it is because your OS doesn't know how to do it because file associations are not set up properly.
So please detail - step by step - exactly what you are doing, what you expect to see happen, and what happens instead, so we can see at which step you are getting confused.
In reply to How are you asking MuseScore by Marc Sabatella
I try to install .SFZ files the way I usually install SF2 files.
When I install SF2 files, I do the following:
- Download the soundfont
- Find it in the folder I download it in. I already have musescore listed as the default program to open SF2 and SFZ files with.
- Open file
-Musescore will open and i will receive a notification saying, "Do you want to install "Insert soundfont name here"?
- click yes.
- "Soundfont has been successfully installed!"
- Open Synthesizer
- Add it from the "Add" menue under the Fluid tab, where sf2 fonts go
- Select sound in the mixer (f10 key)
- it plays!
However, with SFZ files, musescore behaves like this:
- When i click on my newly downloaded font, Muse score will not recognize the file. instead of asking me if i wish to install it, it will claim SFZ is an unsupported format.
- I have been able to get ONE sfz to play by manually placing it in the folder where the soundfonts are, then, in the synthesizer, make sure it's selected
- However, most others do not have sound using this, the only working method. Even when the sample files do not have spaces (but underscores. the same as the one that does work)
What am i doing wrong? Why was only one SFZ the exception? Why can musescore not simply read the filetype and install it, as it does for SF2? Where should i put the sample folders, because im sure i did for the others just what i did for the working one.
In reply to I try to install .SFZ files by Matt Edwards2
My apologies.
In reply to I try to install .SFZ files by Matt Edwards2
I should say, by most others, i mean all but that one.
In reply to I try to install .SFZ files by Matt Edwards2
It may well be true that the file association is not set up for SFZ so the "new" method of opening them directly from your file browser might not work. But the "usual" way of adding them directly form the Synthesizer window should work.
SFZ files that contains spaces in the name of their samples are known not to work, and support for SFZ files is limited to basically just enough to get Salamander to work. But Salamander definitiely *does* work, so you should be able to load it from the Zerberus tab of the Synthesizer window.
In reply to It may well be true that the by Marc Sabatella
One other point.
SFZ files should be unpacked into the SFZ folder in your MuseScore default directory together with the associated sample folder. If you do not also place the samples there the SFZ will not work.
If you prefer you can add the folder where you keep your SFZ files to the list in the Soundfonts section in Edit Preferences, which, IMO is a slightly better way of doing it.
Have you tried the Salamander Grand Piano btw? That is known to work with MuseScore's Zerberus SFZ player, and is a considerable improvement on the default soundfont.
In reply to One other point. SFZ files by ChurchOrganist
What folder is the default directory for SFZ?
I have created a folder marked SFZ which i have set as my default soundfont folder location, and i have the samples and sfz files layed out together in there...no spaces....what am I doing wrong? do Underscores count? It wouldn't make sense if so considering the one I have that works has em
Here's a link to one that will not work for me at the moment (Meaning no sound is heard):
http://ivyaudio.com/Piano-in-162
I removed all the spaces in all of the samples, and even converted them to .wav, the same format as the working sfz.
In reply to What folder is the default by Matt Edwards2
What *specifically* goes wrong when you try to install this as I described? That is, you go to View / Synthesizer, you click the Zerberus tab, you hit the Add button - do you not see the soundfont listed? Are you selecting the soundfont but nothing happens? Do you get an error message? If all appears to go well and the soundfont says it is laoded, what happens if you go to View / Mixer and check the sound selected for the instrument? It's possible you will have to select the sound from the drop down if the soundfont is not General MIDI compatible - which is to say, MuseScore won't know how to find the desired sound within the soundfont if you don't tell it.
In reply to What *specifically* goes by Marc Sabatella
I put the soundfont....AND the sample folder which contains sample files with no spaces...into the SFZ folder.
I open musescore and the score i want to work on
I open the synthesizer
Go to Zerberus
click add
select soundfont
It's added.
go to mixer (f10)
select the sound
play score
no sound.
I feel like i'm going crazy! What on earth is the problem? :(
In reply to I put the soundfont....AND by Matt Edwards2
Posdting the sxcore you are having problems with would help, so we can see exactly what your mixer settings are. Also tell us exactly which soundfonts you have loaded and in what order they appear in teh Fluid and Zerberus tabs of the Synthesizer dialog.
In reply to Posdting the sxcore you are by Marc Sabatella
how would i go about taking pics and posting images?
In reply to how would i go about taking by Matt Edwards2
Most computers / OS's have some sort of of "Print Screen" facility. What OS are you on?
For posting the score, though, attach the score itself - a picture of it wouldn't help.
In reply to Most computers / OS's have by Marc Sabatella
I'd be a little embarrassed, It's simple, and incomplete, but i'll see what i can do
Perhaps you could tell me everything you'd like a pic of in case i leave out anything.
In reply to How are you asking MuseScore by Marc Sabatella
(Edited. Double-post)
In reply to You have tried all the ones by Jojo-Schmitz
It would be nice if they would add a preview audio player on that page so you can hear what it sounds like before downloading the files.
From the Timbres of Heaven SoundFont, patch #2, identified as "Bright Grand". It is the best piano. You can also hear it as the default piano in my own orchestral SF2: https://musescore.org/en/node/96896
In reply to From the Timbres of Heaven by Isaac Weiss
Unfortunately, I have tried that. :( I must disagree.
In reply to From the Timbres of Heaven by Isaac Weiss
To clarify, you mean the "Bright Yamaha grand" correct? It and the concert grand are all i see except the mellow grand much further down. There is no "Bright grand" that i can find.
In reply to To clarify, you mean the by Matt Edwards2
No—either the "Bright Grand" from Timbres of Heaven, or the "Concert Grand Piano" from MuseScore Orchestra. I would not recommend the "Bright Yamaha Grand" from FluidR3Mono to anybody!
In reply to No—either the "Bright Grand" by Isaac Weiss
ah, yes...i still find that too quiet and muffled! :(
In reply to ah, yes...i still find that by Matt Edwards2
BTW, how good are the speakers / headphones you are listening through? A soundfont will sound only as good as your equipment can allow.
In reply to BTW, how good are the by Marc Sabatella
My headphones are very good. Stereo, high quality. I have a specific sound i mind is all :)
In reply to ah, yes...i still find that by Matt Edwards2
Dear Matt Edwards2.
I've had that problem with Piano in 162 as well - you have to use high velocity values for that thing or you can't hear it at all, I find.
There's another one that's lovely if you're in 64-bit Windows - Piano Amore. You'll have to Google it cos they keep changing its hiding place but it's legal and I find it rich and warm in its demos-sadly I can't use it cos I'm still in XP SP3 for my disability software, can't afford to upgrade it all. But the demos are lovely.
If you've got $20 spare, check out Pianissimo too, that's another lovely one I use all the time. If you get clicking on the higher notes (usually left-hand!) that's because of too-accurate volume changes. You have to park the volume change just BEFORE the note, not right ON the start of the note, then the clicking tends not to happen (or if it does, it's nowhere near as noticeable.) But for twenty bucks you cannot complain about it, it's gorgeous.
As far as your tune goes, get it written on any piano before you forget it. You can use MIDI to swap the pianos at anytime, but get it down on the harddrive. The amount of tunes I've lost by thinking 'Oh, I'll remember that later....!'
Yours respectfully
Chris.
www.flstudiomusic.com/2010/02/25-piano-soundfonts.html
25 free piano soundfonts. I don't know if you will like any of these, but chances are you'll find one good one here.
Enjoy!
In reply to www.flstudiomusic.com/2010/02 by [DELETED] 597046
Tried em, believe it or not! D:
In reply to www.flstudiomusic.com/2010/02 by [DELETED] 597046
*edited*
Starting a new sub thread at the bottom here for clarity :)
Regarding the Ivy Piano-in-162 sfz.......
I have just been doing some testing with that.
The first basic problem is that the Folder at the top level of the Samples folders has spaces in the name.
If you change the spaces in this Folder name to underlines, then you can get the soundfont to load into Zerberus by hacking the SFZ file in a text editor, and changing all the sample definitions from beginning Piano in 162 to beginning Piano_in_162_
This is a huge soundfont, however, over 2Gb for each SFZ in compressed format, and whilst Zerberus attempts to load it it coughs after around 1GB and gives up with a "Cannot load file" error, which suggests that it imposes a memory limit.
In fact the only SFZ player (of which I have several) I have managed to get it to load and play properly in is Sonar's Dimension LE synth. Even Plogue's free, standalone version of the Aria SFZ player wouldn't play the samples without distortion (I suspect it was trying to play the samples in DFD mode, which wouldn't work well with FLAC compressed samples).
Now I have 8 GB of RAM and Task Manager was reporting 79% of RAM used after Dimension loaded the Ivy piano, so, for practical purposes this SFZ is not suitable for anything but single paino use provided you have more than the usually supplied 4GB RAM.
BTW it is a nice piano but not that hot IMO, and the resource requirements make me think it is not worth the bother.
So I should look elsewhere Matt.
Have you tried this one??
http://www.productionvoices.com/estate-grand-le-for-sforzando/
PS and then there are these........
http://bigcatinstruments.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/all-keyboard-instrument…
In reply to Starting a new sub thread at by ChurchOrganist
Now if I could only easily load the soundfonts in muse score, but the one you linked for the Estate Grand has spaces in the filenames
In reply to Now if I could only easily by Matt Edwards2
But as I explained - that is easily overcome.
Just use file rename to change the spaces to _
Then open the SFZ in Notepad or another text editor and use Find & Replace to change the sample definitions.
If you use Notepad++ I can even let you have a definition file which will highlight the opcodes so it is easier to which samples path names need changing.
In reply to But as I explained - that is by ChurchOrganist
hmm, alrighty. Will just regular notepad work?
In reply to hmm, alrighty. Will just by Matt Edwards2
Notepad works, you just have to do the editing manually rather than being able to rely on the automation possible with other editors.
In reply to hmm, alrighty. Will just by Matt Edwards2
Yes plain vanilla Notepad will work, but opcode highlighting does help so I seriously recommend you give Notepad++ a try.
You can find the files to get that working here.....
https://musescore.org/en/node/99411
And a link to the Notepad++ editor :)
HTH
In reply to Yes plain vanilla Notepad by ChurchOrganist
Blargh!! Now im using the editor and can find no spaces either! In fact, the disclaimer in the file reads "This file has been configured correctly to ensure the best quality."
What the Deuce? :(
Not even the XML you linked is highlighting anything.
I checked Timbres of Heaven (version 3.00 final) and the Bright Piano indeed has a strange problem in Musescore 2.0.2 - the muffled sound appears one you augment pitch velocity over 63. Below that, it's a very good piano soundfont. So the muffled appears for the "mp" and stronger dynamics (if one uses their default velocities in Musescore)
¿Which version of TofH are you using?
In reply to I checked Timbres of Heaven by mdi1972
The one that came with that Musescore orchestral font mentioned above.
Also, can I just say how nonsense this whole mess with SFZ is? I mean really, Why can it not just install and play like sf2? The compatibility NEEDS to be greatly enhanced.
In reply to The one that came with that by Matt Edwards2
It is not as simple as SF2 as the whole directory structure of the SFZ soundfont needs to be where MuseScore can find it, and each SFZ soundfont has a different number of samples associated with it, and in a varying complexity of directory structure; so installing an SFZ soundfont is better done by a human, who will know how many files need to be transferred.
Did no-one teach you how to copy & paste files?
In reply to The one that came with that by Matt Edwards2
MuseScore contains only very limited support for the SFZ format. As far as I know, it was added specifically so that we could use Salamander. But many / most SFZ simply won't work correctly. Someday it might be nice to have improved SFZ format, but it's hardly a *need* - the majority of users are perfectly happy with the SF2 option. No one is forcing you to use the SFZ option, but Salamander *does* work.
In reply to MuseScore contains only very by Marc Sabatella
To add to that.
SFZ is human readable, and has a really low learning curve. It wouldn't take much for users to edit any SFZ to be MuseScore compatible. Although some features, like keyswitches would have to be be eliminated from them, the quality of the samples would not have to be sacrificed.
In reply to MuseScore contains only very by Marc Sabatella
Actually, the majority of SFZ soundfonts I have tried do work in Zerberus, but you have to be prepared to hack the file a little in order for Zerberus to understand it.
The usual problem is spaces in filenames, although really big soundfonts will refuse to load because of memory limtations.
As far as I can tell Zerberus simply ignores an opcode it doesn't understand, although I haven't tested this exhaustively.
In reply to Actually, the majority of SFZ by ChurchOrganist
I guess what I don't have a sense of is, to what extent ignoring these opcodes makes the soundfont either unusable or not the imrpovement over an SF2 version that one might otherwise expect.
In reply to I guess what I don't have a by Marc Sabatella
Depends.....;
If you're wanting to apply a load of LFO, Filter and Envelope Generator parameters to the sound then you will be disappointed with Zerberus.
Or if you are wanting to do round robin sampling to provide realism, then again you will find it lacking.
But if you are simply wanting to play samples of real instruments and map them to various keys then Zerberus is perfectly adequate.
The only slight diappointment is that Zerberus doesn't properly follow the SFZ loop mode spec, which should default to continuous, whereas Zerberus appears to default to one shot.
In reply to Depends.....; If you're by ChurchOrganist
For future reference, here is the bug report about spaces in sample names #21891: SFZ with space in sample paths cannot be loaded.
About the "SFZ loop mode spec", it would be very helpful to have a small SFZ soundfont (even single sample, single instrument) + a MSCZ and clear instructions to reproduce the problem in the issue tracker. I guess it's more a feature request, meaning Zerberus just play the sample once currently and nothing is done to loop it, but still, with a small example, it would be easier to implement. It could be a perfect job for a student willing to prove his skills for GSoC.
In reply to For future reference, here is by [DELETED] 5
I'm on this Nicolas :)
I just need to ascertain whether Zerberus does actually play the loop when loop_continuous is defined, and loop points are already defined within the sample(s).
In reply to I'm on this Nicolas :) I just by ChurchOrganist
I can now report that Zerberus currently ignores any loop information in the sample even when loop_mode is set to continuous.
I'm not actually sure in a RIFF wave sample the loop data is stored - I will begin to find out :)
So guys, for some clarity, I got the Salamander piano to work (not my first choice so far)
Now, I compared that in notepad++ to this:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B05Sp4zxPFR6Sl8zbFZobkphX28/view
As far as i can tell they are the same, yet the above will not sound when loaded (I even took out the spaces in the SFZ file)
So can someone get this font to work, or is it not compatible like the one I tried earlier? The creator assured me it works for MuseScore but I don't get how this and Salamander are configured any different....
In reply to So guys, for some clarity, I by Matt Edwards2
Hi Matt,
I think the problem is that MuseScore doesn't understand the path to the samples.
It's too late to try to work it out tonight. I'll have a go in the morning.
In reply to Hi Matt, I think the problem by ChurchOrganist
Thank you. I'm itching sincerely to get the instrument sounding right so that I can actually compose with it. This has been quite the mucky ordeal, but im so close! :)
In reply to So guys, for some clarity, I by Matt Edwards2
OK the problem is that Zerberus doesn't understand the "default_path" opcode, so consequently it can't find the samples :)
You need to make a copy of the SFZ file, copy the default_path value after the "=" in each sample definition, remove the the section and then save it.
But I wouldn't bother - I've just checked the basic piano out in Rapture LE, and it is nothing special, and if my new Behringer Studio 5 monitors can't make it sound good, it's not worth the effort.
Incidentally I had to try 4 sfz players before I got it to work - it seems only Rapture LE can cope with the default_path opcode and the Ogg compression.
In reply to OK the problem is that by ChurchOrganist
Cripes. :(
I've head the soundfont itself before and it sounded fine to my novice brain.
Does it sound like this?
https://youtu.be/7JQxuc-2kAo
That would work on paper, unless you have anyrhing wrong with it that I don't recognize...? Again, i'm new to all this.
In reply to Cripes. :( I've head the by Matt Edwards2
Yes it does sound like that.
Which is fine for Coldplay, but for Adele or Michael Bubeley there just isn't the expression there in the soundfont.
It only has one set of samples, and therefore only one velocity layer - velocity timbre is controlled by tracking the filter with velocity.
In reply to Yes it does sound like by ChurchOrganist
ahh, crickets...
I guess my problem is most fonts i try sound too "Muffled". Too subdued and not up close enough, like i'm next to it. I need a good, dry, unfiltered sound.
In reply to ahh, crickets... I guess my by Matt Edwards2
If you want a "dry" sound - one that resembles how an instrument might sound if played in a padded room instead of how it sounds in the audience of a recital hall - then you need to turn off/down the reverb in the effects section of the synthesizer window. Although I wouldn't be surprised if most piano soundfonts don't have some amount of reverb already present, because I think most people would want the sound of the piano as it sounds to the audience, not how it might sound in a padded practice room.
In reply to If you want a "dry" sound - by Marc Sabatella
I was going to say exactly the same thing Marc :)
But I have had a busy day, and you beat me to it :)
If I were you Matt, I would concentrate on writing the music.
I would then save as a MIDI file and load it into DAW software where you can use VST instruments and effects to make the piano sound exactly as you want it.
In reply to I was going to say exactly by ChurchOrganist
B-but I don't even know what a DAW is, or how VSTS work...plus, i have strings in it too! Could I after everything still save the piano and strings as one MP3?
I dunno how i could get both instruments at once...
The learning curve, she taunts me so!
In reply to B-but I don't even know what by Matt Edwards2
Have a look at this Wikipedia article - it may help you :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_audio_workstation
It is perfectly possible to save your strings and piano out to an MP3 directly from MuseScore, but be aware that the result will only be good enough for a demo.
You will need to make sure that the instruments are balanced in the mixer.
Then just make sure you click the "Save to score" button on the synthesiser page before you export the audio from the file menu.
Be aware, though that Zerberus is currently not exporting audio on Windows, although that is fixed for the next stable release.
In reply to Have a look at this Wikipedia by ChurchOrganist
So using the right DAW I could load the midi of my score into, say, the VST version of that Piano in 162 font from earlier? (I think that would suffice as Im sure i could get it sounding good with some tweaks.) If so, which free DAW program do you suggest?
I am not sure if that's the info you're looking for but "Presonus Studio One Prime" is a free DAW
that manages Soundfont instruments (within it's "Presence" integrated player).
OK I know this threads getting a little old but if you are looking for an expressive, clean sounding piano you should give the Steinway from University of Iowa a go. I have modified it to give it extra expression and it is now my favourite piano. I have Ivory Grand (Korg module) and other software pianos plus an expensive Korg keyboard but the Steinway still beats them all in my opinion.
It available free from my site.
https://sites.google.com/site/soundfonts4u/
Its 370 mb in size and includes a few different presets.
Hope you enjoy.
Cheers,
John
In reply to OK I know this threads by Jonky Ponky
http://zenvoid.org/audio/
"The older version of the soundfont was based on the University of Iowa Musical Instrument Samples."
http://freepats.zenvoid.org/sf2/acoustic_piano_imis_1.sf2
"Acoustic grand piano soundfont (old version) (37.5MiB). Steinway & Sons, sf2 format, 13 samples, stereo" (red-book CDDA resolution audio).
Don't panic. I have an idea for the best and closest piano soundfont I can find. How about this one at: http://sonimusicae.free.fr/matshelgesson-maestro-en.html
Do be aware, This soundfont is in .rar format. In order for you to use this soundfont, I would suggest you use programs like Winzip 7Zip, Unrar, etc.
Enjoy.
This one is really very good, but you must have/create a polyphone account https://polyphone-soundfonts.com/en/files/10-pianos/305-motif-es6-conce…
In reply to This one is really very good… by Ruby Liz
https://sites.google.com/view/hed-sounds/salamander-c5-light
Have You Tried Kawaiuprightpiano
In my opinion, Nice Keys Extreme has hands down some of the best piano sounds in it
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3zFERJ2rMQpT0VFUnVDbThicEk/view
In reply to In my opinion, Nice Keys… by Caden J. R.
As the compiler of the above mentioned set I would recommend the following set of three different pianos (Salamander Grand/Yamaha C5, Steinway and Upright) available for free here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3zFERJ2rMQpbGVGMTVWS1FjUXM/view
or go to my site and scroll down to the piano section and choose
https://sites.google.com/site/soundfonts4u/