Scordatura notation — for various stringed instruments
I’m starting a new thread on scordatura notation because looks like extant forum posts on the topic (except for one) are rather dated ... while MuseScore itself has developed considerably since.
UPDATE 2023-02-07: I recommend ignoring the initial and sizable part of this discussion as it is is based on generating scordatura notation by the trick of altering the visual position of notes. That approach seemed appealing initially, but presently there is no means for automating this approach AND there are issues with ledger lines.
Fast forward to the discussion in this thread regarding Sammik's Scordatura Plug-in for MuseScore 3.
==== The original post continues here ====
In a recent forum discussion I read that one could double-click a note and vertically drag it to change its “visual position” while leaving its pitch unchanged. This is the essence of scordatura, and hopefully an aspect of a viable construction method, so I’m wondering if anyone uses this feature for creating scordatura. I was very excited by the prospect as this would allow me to write more music in scordatura form.
Unfortunately I was unable to change the “visual position” via double-click-drag as suggested. (Operating MuseScore 3.5 Alpha under Mac OS 10.13.6)
Alternately I achieved the effect I wanted by changing the value of:
Inspector>Element>Offset>y
… but sadly, the stems didn’t move with the notes. And if I select the note and stem the Inspector won’t populate. So I need to look into this further.
Now a general discussion for those unfamiliar with scordatura.
Scordatura Basics
In Italian the term scordatura literally means “retuned” or “mistuned/discord”.
Scordatura is also the name for a clever and very useful form of “Guidian” notation.
Composers and scorists (including J.S. Bach) have used scordatura to create notation for a stringed instrument which, for effect, has been tuned in a manner that differs from its normal tuning.
For instance a violin is normally tune GDAE. So when the violin is tuned alternately, like GDGD, scordatura notation greatly simplifies reading for the violinist, because note pitches for the retuned strings merely indicate finger positioning ... not the sounding pitch associated with the dot on the page. Thus with Scordatura, the violinist reads—on the retuned instrument—as if everything is normal and the pitches play correctly. Of course, this can be a nightmare for musicians with perfect pitch. Likewise for a pianist or harpist (or even a violinist in standard GDAE tuning) trying to read along from the scordatura.
In a scenario where a violin is tuned GDGD, the strings shown here in bold are a whole step lower than normal. So the “scordaturist” writes the notes a whole step higher than they sound. Thus:
- The string formerly known as A is written as A, but sounds G because it’s tuned down a while step
- The first finger on that string is still written as B, but accordingly sounds A.
- The second finger is written as C# but sounds B.
- The third finger is written as D but sounds C.
- The fourth finger is written as E but sounds D (and is a unison with the open 1st string)
Reasons for retuning stringed instruments and scordatura:
An instrument like violin is sometimes retuned for various effects:
- to enable harmonies, chords and drones otherwise unattainable
- to produce new harmonics and overtones and sympathetic vibration
- to be able to play simple melodies an octave higher or lower while using the same fingering
- to alter the timbre
- to change the volume of the instrument
Possible ways to write scordatura in MuseScore
If one starts with a score written at actual pitch:
-
a pitch selection feature would be extremely helpful. For instance for the GDGD tuning, if one could select a pitch range and set the y offset to move the note up a whole step. I’m new to MuseScore and don’t see a pitch range option in the Selection Filter. Is there such a feature there or elsewhere in MuseScore?
-
then after the pitch range is selected, ideally one could change the y position of all selected notes, and viola! (I mean Voila!!)
If one is enters scordatura literally (i.e. the finger positions, not the correct pitches:
- there would need to be a function to set the pitch of selected notes to +/- x half steps to produce the correct sound.
- notes could be entered via tablature and then pitch corrected.
Any thoughts on the value of scordatura in MuseScore?
Comments
There is another tool that was introduced in version 3 - The Staff type change, which is found in the text palette by default. You can apply this to a measure then use whole step offsets in the display. There are limitations to this. If you write a B and have an offset of -1 (positive is down) it will be displayed as a C which would be problematic for scordatura. One step as you know is a C#.
One other option that's sometimes better is to use the capo. You can set the number for "frets" (aka 1/2 steps) the note will sound above the written pitch. This has the disadvantage of working in only one direction since you cannot use negative fret numbers. This is applied by adding any text and using the capo tab in Staff Text Properties (get there the same way as pizz.) You can add this to any instrument and it will work.
Both of these do have the disadvantage of being instrument wide which is not what is always used on the violin family. It won't work on the GDGD tuning you mentioned.
The selection filter is not the place to look for features such as this. The selection filter essentially is used to eliminate items from being copied (this is a simplified explanation). They will mostly be in the inspector or the right click context menu (like staff/system text properties as well as staff/part properties). You can actually change the transposition in staff properties of the entire instrument but cannot transpose only part of the range for the instrument.
EDIT - I do want to point out that I have no more than a rudimentary understanding of scordatura.
Rather than Inspector>Element>Offset>y use Inspector>Chord>Offset>y
In reply to Rather than Inspector… by Jojo-Schmitz
Thanks! That resolves the issue of the stems remaining stationary as I offset the notehead element from its sounding pitch position.
Which leads to the next question:
Is it possible to perform a Chord>Offset>y increment with several melodic notes selected?
When I select multiple notes the Inspector collapses to a state that shows only the Element Group panel and its six subordinate properties. That would not be a viable workflow, as it would be far too tedious to individually offset each "scorded" note.
scorster
In reply to Thanks! That resolves the… by scorster
Yes it is, with a list selection. I guess you've been using a range selection
In reply to Yes it is, with a list… by Jojo-Schmitz
I'm selecting with Cmd-click on the Mac, which I understand to be a "list selection" but the Inspector is in the collapsed state I described.
The handbook is says:
To select a list (or discontinuous range) of score elements:
Click on the first element;
Hold down Ctrl (Mac: Cmd) and successively click on the desired additional elements.
Have I misinterpreted this? If so, please let me know how to make a list selection.
Thanks again!
scorster
In reply to I'm selecting with Cmd-click… by scorster
Indeed Cmd+click should make it a list selection. And that works for me, as long as you select note(head)s only
In reply to Indeed Cmd+click should make… by Jojo-Schmitz
Thanks for persisting with me on this Jojo. Now it works.
Perhaps the trigger was that I held Cmd prior to the first click. But I do note, that is not necessary now as I continue; and the Inspector displays as I would expect.
Whatever the case, I want to confirm that in all my previous attempts at list selection noteheads showed highlighted blue ... and there was no "range" rectangle showing. Would that mean that I had a valid list selection?
BTW, I'm more familiar with the term discontiguous selection. Is list selection MuseScore speak for discontiguous selection, or is there some distinction?
You're working on a Mac too?
Much appreciated!
scorster
In reply to Thanks for persisting with… by scorster
No, I'm on Windows
Not sure about discontiguous selection, that to me you also mean a range selection with 'holes' and as such is not the same as a list selection
In reply to Thanks for persisting with… by scorster
Okay, I'll try to figure out what list selection means.
On searching the handbook the closest entry found is Select a list of objects which I cited previously. But the description doesn't disallow discontiguous selections specifically. Nor does it condone them.
When I search the handbook on "list selection" (quoted or not) I find no relevant results.
In the meantime I have good news: Via the Inspector I'm able to control properties on the discontiguously selected notes. A discontiguous selection (as you say, "one with holes in it") works as I'd expected. I can select notes—adjacent or not—and the Inspector does not collapse.
So the selection/Inspector issue is resolved ... except perhaps I don't know what list selection means.
In reply to Okay, I'll try to figure out… by scorster
To see the inspector options from note heads you must only have note heads selected. Selecting one stem or accidental etc. will give you the limited inspector display you are describing. Besides cmd+click, there are several options in the right click menu to select notes.
If you select nothing and right click (or however you get there on a Mac) you get a speed menu that includes
Select >
If you move your mouse to the Select > you will see
All similar Elements
All similar Elements in same staff
All similar Elements in range selection (which will be grayed out)
More...
More is a very powerful tool. You can select only notes of the same pitch, like F#6 if you want to only do something with all of the notes of only that pitch.
If you select a range of measures and right click the 3rd option is no longer grayed out because you now have a range selection.
One of the option in the More dialog is to limit your preferences to the selection so do keep that in mind.
In reply to To see the inspector options… by mike320
Thanks mike320
Thanks for the advice: When I plan to use the Inspector to adjust properties of multiple objects I'll be careful not to select a mix of note heads and other conflicting objects.
I hadn’t noticed Right click>Select>More… which opens the Select Notes dialog. Handy features there … but still no option for selecting a pitch-range (throughout the score or within the current selection.)
I’d like to keep this thread focused on scordatura so I’ll start a new How To pitch-range post. I'll post a link here soon for those who care to follow or comment.
In reply to Thanks mike320 Thanks for… by scorster
My point of mentioning More... et al is that there is no scordatura process built into MuseScore like you want. There are tools that will help make it easier though. There are essentially 7 notes played on a single string (this is simplified for the example) before moving to the next string. Using More... 7 times is easier than trying to make sure you get every C#5 you want to modify by adding them to a list selection (what you get when you cmd+click each note or get with select all similar elements).
I didn't mention some other tools associated with selecting notes. If you select a group of measures, right click a note head inside of the selection, right click and chose Select >All similar elements in range selection, you will get a list selection of those notes. In the case of notes & rests, there are also "Notes" "Rests" and "Grace notes" buttons in the inspector that do the same thing. This would be useful if several notes in a row are played on the modified A string
Finally, you are correct that there is no way to select all notes in a range of pitches. This is perhaps an improvement that could be made to the current interface.
Creating a How to is an excellent idea. Knowing the tools to make it easier will make you How to better for others.
In reply to Thanks mike320 Thanks for… by scorster
UPDATE: I've posted a request for a dialog that select notes by pitch range.
The post is also inquired to see if such a feature currently exists in MuseScore ... as I pitch-range selection as a critical step in creating scordatura.
In reply to UPDATE: I've posted a… by scorster
My Pitch-range selection questions are now explored and reasonably resolved, and I've explained one adequate solution here.
If you have any comments about selecting notes by pitch range, please post them there, so this thread stays on track about creating scordatura notation.
Success:
Here's a score that demonstrate the feasibility of MuseScore scordatura notation:
Bonaparte Part 3 v03 Scordatura.mscz
I accomplished the end result (line 4) by first writing the melody at normal pitch (i.e. no scordatura) and producing scordatura notation by graphically altering the vertical note position on the staff via:
Inspector>Chord>Offset>y
I hope to outline alternate approaches soon because I think they would would prove simpler for the user, they might be reasonably easy to implement, and they would perfectly work with tablature notation.
These would involve transposing the output of selected notes or specific note ranges, leaving the composer free to write scordatura directly, or enter fingering via tablature and generate scordatura notation "for free." So it would offer a form of input different that what I used for this score, and a different method for accommodating scordatura and performance pitches in a single document.
Thanks everybody!
scorster
In reply to Success: Here's a score that… by scorster
It seems to me that your current final solution is still missing a ledger line? (which is to be expected when working with y-offsets).
I've added 3 more workarounds, of which I'd personally recommend the retuning one; it's the least effort for the best result imho. (but you do have to remember to retune every entered note on every edit).
In reply to It seems to me that your… by jeetee
Not quite, huh
> jeetee wrote: It seems to me that your current final solution is still missing a ledger line? (which is to be expected when working with y-offsets).
Yes, there are the "missing ledger lines" in my final trial ( in my experiment where I produced scordatura notation by shifting notes graphically.) It became clear that in addition to being somewhat cumbersome this approach is ultimately defective in many circumstances. Which led me to look for a non-graphical approach where I could transpose output on individual notes.
> jeetee wrote:I've added 3 more workarounds, of which I'd personally recommend the retuning one; it's the least effort for the best result imho. (but you do have to remember to retune every entered note on every edit).
Bingo! Love it!!
YES to your methodology No. 2 ( outlined in your attached score.)
And thanks for explaining how to transpose the pitch on selected notes. Really great that notes possess that property.
Scordatura and tablature
Here's Bonaparte again, this time with tablature for mandolin using methodology No. 2:
Scordatura -- Mandolin Tablature (Bonaparte).mscz
Further experiments forthcoming!
Next week I plan to create a more challenging project with scordatura with a more complex tuning like AEAC#. This will require additional effort in selecting notes on which I'll want to transpose output. But I think shift-drag will suffice, followed by pressing the inspector's Note filter button to gain a list selection!
I really appreciate your contributions here!
scorster
In reply to > jeetee wrote: It seems to… by scorster
if you have the tablature you can select all notes on string 1 etc
In reply to if you have the tablature… by wolfgan
Wofgan, that's truly an excellent idea! Making selections via the tablature staff would make "string based" selection tasks far easier!
Using linked tablature as a selection tool hadn't yet occurred to me as I was was first focused on trying to get a workable scordatura system, which I've accomplished thanks to jeetee pointing out that note transposition exists and is easily managed through Inspector>Note>tuning, by entering a value in cents.
Shortly after devising a functional scordatura method I read your suggestion which left me quite excited about selecting via the tablature staff. But as far as I can tell tablature selections don't cause selection of the notes in the Guidian staff. Nor do I see a way of commuting the selection from the tab staff to the Guidian staff.
Do you know if that's possible? Maybe there's a specific type of selection for this, or an additional step required to trigger the selection of Guidian notes. Something like that might be the final piece in the puzzle.
Currently, when I select tablature notes:
Maybe there's a way to get output from the tab staff only? I've got just over three weeks of experience with MuseScore, so there's much I don't know yet. Searching for the ideal approach (or a reasonable workaround) that will couple tablature selection with the ability to audibly alter the tuning property of various notes.
I certainly hope selecting by tablature will ultimately prove to be a viable option.
Thanks for your thoughtful input!
scorster
MuseScore 3.5 / Mac OS 10.13.6
In reply to That's truly an excellent… by scorster
Rather than adding a linked staff change the staff to a tablature staff, edit the notes tunings then change the staff back to standard and it will keep the tuning. If it makes it easier for you to keep track of, you can add a linked staff that you will keep as standard but alter the staff you are going to keep.
In reply to Rather than adding a linked… by mike320
if you have a linked tablature as you have you can select a note on the 1st string even in the staff with the standard notes and select all the notes on that string
In reply to if you have a linked… by wolfgan
That's even better.
I do believe it's a bug that you can tune a linked staff without it affecting the other staff though.
In reply to That's even better. I do… by mike320
for me it affects both systems even if i select the notes on 1 string in the tablature it also changes the pitch offset in the standard notation
In reply to for me it affects both… by wolfgan
What's happening with me is that changing the tuning on the tablature does nothing. Changing the tuning on the note changes the pitch in the tablature also but doesn't change what is being displayed in the tablature inspector. Changing the tuning in the tablature on changes the inspector for the tablature but does nothing at all to playback or the inspector for the note.
In reply to What's happening with me is… by mike320
what i did:
I took the 1st line of the 1st bonaparte file above and copied it to a new file with mandolin notationn and linked tablature. then I mark 1 note on string 1 select filter all notes on the same string and in the inspector -200 cent.
thats all.
In reply to Rather than adding a linked… by mike320
Wolfgan,
It sounds like you’re saying you can select a fret number in a linked tablature staff and on changing the tuning offset (i.e. Inspector>Note>Tuning) museScore also changes the tuning offset of the related note in the linked standard staff, thus you hear the pitch offset during playback. (This is indeed what I’m after!)
mike320
Sounds like you’re saying that you can select a tablature fret number, set its tuning offset in the Inspector, but that does NOT affect the tuning offset of the linked note in the standard staff. Thus playback is unaffected, and the Inspector shows no tuning offset on the note in the standard staff. And you think this is a bug.
I’m encounting the same questionable behavior as mike320 and concur that it must be a bug.
I want what Woflgan has.
==================
Wolfgan and mike320,
Would you please identify your platform and MuseScore versions? I’m wondering if this is a platform issue.
scorster
MuseScore 3.5.28145 / MacOS 10.13.6
In reply to Wolfgan, It sounds like you… by scorster
i have musescore 3.5.0 and win 10
see file 1
maybe it is important to use mandolin?
then I mark 1 note on string 1. then i go to select. to select more: same string. and in the inspector:ply : tuning -200 cent.
see file 2
In reply to i have musescore 3.5.0 and… by wolfgan
Thanks for following up Wofgan,
I opened both your scores to test the tab-to-standardStaff link issue. In neither can I affect the notes in the standard staff by changing the Tuning offset on frets in the tablature staff. So maybe the linking behavior is a platform issue.
Also, I consistently find a glass ceiling of 300 for the Tuning offset. 301 doesn't work, nor anything higher.
— Usually —
I managed to set a notes Tuningoffset to 600 once on the standard staff ... but can't replicate that.
Do you encounter a Tuning offset limit? If so, what is that value?
There do seem to be numerous bugs in the tablature areas of MuseScore.
Thanks!
scorster
In reply to Thanks for following up… by scorster
"There do seem to be numerous bugs in the tablature areas of MuseScore."
Maybe, maybe not (more likely something you are not aware right now, or some known limitations)
Anyway, open a specific thread to report these "numerous bugs", one by one, with example/sample score, and details.
In reply to Wolfgan, It sounds like you… by scorster
scorster,
Working with MuseScore 3.5.0.13199, Rev 43c4533, Windows 7
I confirm that the "tuning" (play pitch offset) settings are independent on a note proper and on its tab symbol. If we change the value for one, the value on the other does not follow.
Of course, the offset setting on a tab symbol seems to have no direct significance; if I click on the tab symbol, the note sounds, its pitch affected by the play pitch offset on the note proper, but not by the setting on the tab symbol.
But indeed it would be handy in the maneuver you discuss if we could make the change in play pitch offset ("tuning") on either the note proper or its alter ego on the tab staff, the other following.
Doug
In reply to > jeetee wrote: It seems to… by scorster
I'm wondering, in MuseScore, if notes possess a Transpose property analogous to their Tuning property? If so, that might be the ideal way to alter pitch output for scores written in scordatura. If notes don't have a Transpose property I'd like those in the open source development community to consider this a request.
================
We can adjust MuseScore's Tuning offset property in cents. That implies that MuseScore uses pitch bend (or something similar) to manage the pitch adjustment. Anyone know it that's true? If Tuning offsets bend pitch (like Pitch wheel) then this approach is workable but not ideal for scordatura because, as jeetee pointed out, noticeable timbre issues appear around 3 half steps of pitch shift ... not surprisingly, right where MuseScore sets its 300 cent limit.
It certainly makes sense that MuseScore would offer a Tuning property. For instance, the Tuning property:
allows us to work with an instrument sample that’s slightly out of tune. And in this situation it would probably make most sense to apply it per staff, channel or score, rather than per note. But per note would work.
or we could work with an instrument sample that has a few out of tune pitches because the Tuning offset correction could be applied to fix all notes of that pitch class.)
and as discussed in this thread the Tuning property successfully allows scordatural playback transposition between +/- 3 half steps.
beyond this I don’t see other purposes for MuseScore's wondrous Tuning property, though there may be many!
However, for the purpose of scordatura, MuseScore's Tuning property is limited in two ways:
1) it leaves us hamstrung by its 300 cent limit.
2) even if we could set the Tuning property to larger intervals, like a 4th (500 cents) a 5th (700 cents) or an octave (1200 cents) doing so would surely lead to timbral ick-itude.
So MuseScore's Tuning property works well for scordatura, but only when an instrument's strings are retuned by a maximum amount of three half steps.
To better support scordatura and string retuning greater than a minor 3rd a **Transpose ** property per note would surely prove superior to the exisiting Tuning property. In scordatura it's not uncommon to have strings tuned a 4th or 5th from normal, sometimes requiring replacement strings for feasibility.
To recap, in MuseScore:
Thanks for pondering all this and inching toward a solution! I think we're pretty close.
scorster
I wish I had emphacised the following at the outset of this topic:
Any notation application can write scordatura notation. But I've never seen an app that invokes the necessary pitch adjustments so the app's sound output is equivalent to a musician performing on a retuned instrument while playing from scordatura notation.
If it was lost on anyone, that's the whole point of this discussion. To write in scordatura form AND hear pitch playback in MuseScore as it would sound in performance:
Proofreading your scordatura work in a notation app without output transposition is truly taxing, and only feasible if you have the retuned instrument on hand and the facility to play it.
Likewise, without sound output adjustments, it's impossible to directly include a scordatura staff as part of larger score.
If a "scordatura playback" option is not available elsewhere MuseScore could be the first app to support the feature.
scorster
In reply to Wish I'd mentioned the… by scorster
The desire for native scordatura support was most definitely implied from the beginning especially when some strings are transposing. It's unfortunate that tools such as "fix to line" and "staff type change" have bugs that do not permit their use or it's possible a plugin could be created that would allow you to do what you want. Since plugins can be assigned a shortcut I think this would satisfy your needs.
In reply to The desire for native… by mike320
After reading this thread, I agree that this looks like a job for a plugin. I would think that a pitch change plugin would be fairly straight forward. After all, there is a tempo change plugin.
In reply to After reading this thread, I… by bobjp
Pitch change using tuning in the inspector is too limited and other methods of changing pitches are flawed so even if the API existed (which I'm not sure of) this is not currently possible.
In reply to Pitch change using tuning in… by mike320
That outlook surprises me. What is needed here is to be able, for a given note, to offset the sounded pitch by an integral number of semitones from the notated pitch. This is the same thing that is done today, on a staff-wide basis, by the transposition setting.
If the notated pitch is 72, then we may need to send to the synthesizer not "sound 72" but rather "sound 70", or maybe "sound 68".
Doug
In reply to That outlook surprises me… by Doug Kerr
Thanks Doug,
You've understood my point perfectly!
I'll add some comments at the tail of this thread:
to reiterate my goal and and the small remaining step to achieve it
to express my doubts regarding the feasibility of a plug-in solution
scorster
In reply to Pitch change using tuning in… by mike320
I don't have a use for pitch change.
But it seems to me that when I add a "C" on a staff, Musescore playback produces that "C" based on.... what?
Wouldn't there be a way to change that "what" to playback some other pitch without a major rewrite? I write a "C", but the plugin makes MuseScore think it'a an "E", or whatever.
Or, like the original suggestion, I write the notes I want playback to produce. But the plugin changes only the notes look like in the score. Like transposing instruments. MuseScore already does this type of thing.
In reply to I don't have a use for pitch… by bobjp
What should be possible is to write the A you want to hear then move the note to the C line or space using either fix to line or staff type change. There are issues with both of these features. For fix to line, if there is an accidental on the note, it is lost and cannot be put back when you check the option in the inspector. For staff type change, it will only work in one direction so you can use it for scorditura in one direction but not the other. I looked at it a couple of days ago but I don't remember which way it works.
In reply to What should be possible is… by mike320
.
We're almost there!
My goal is singular
To get MuseScore to transpose the pitch of particular notes on a staff, without the need of separating those notes into voices or additional staves.
To reach this goal that I only need two things:
1) A means of selecting the desired notes
We already have quick, viable ways of making selections:
2) We need to set a Transpose property on selected notes
Proposed solution:
If MuseScore's file format can accommodate an additional Note property the solution is just the addition of a control for that property in Inspector>Note ... and the logical place would be rght near Inspector>Note>Tuning.
==========
To those who've recently suggesting a plug-in
A plug-in would need:
a) a means of determining what objects to target
b) a designated impact to perform on those objects
Given the scenario I've outlined I can't conceive of an algorithm that could effectively achieve "a".
At first blush it would appear that a plug-in could simply accept user input of one (or more) target pitch ranges. But in scordatura a pitch doesn't necessarily indicate a particular string.
For instance, if I have a mandolin (normally GADE) retuned to GDAD, in the Guidian staff the written E above the open A string could be played as:
I can't see how such choices could be automated. That said, I don't need them to be, nor was I recommending it. And without an programmatic means of achieving "a" there no reason to think about "b". But perhaps I've overlooked something obvious. I do that all the time!
Scordatura is manual labor—like writing regular notation—and there lots of design decisions made along the way. Naturally I'm comfortable with that because Scordatura itself is easily achieved on the Guidian staff.
Suggestions?
If someone can describe a pseudo-code idea for a scordatura plug-in, in particular, a clear concept for targeting note candidates for scordatura transposition, then perhaps we can take a whack at "b". But I see little purpose in speaking of the prospect of a plug-in unless it proceeds in a substantive manner.
Going forward
I'd like to refocus this thread to the discussion of the proposed Note>Transpose property.
Transposition "per note" is the simple and logical solution for rectifying scordatura notation playback. And what a wonderful world that would be!
scorster
In reply to We're almost there! My goal… by scorster
With regard to a plugin, it would seem most feasible to limit its role to one layer of this matter: providing for per-note transposition setting.
That would leave the scordaturist, as at present, with the task of identifying the target notes which, as scorster has amply illuminated, can be very complicated.
Doug
In reply to We're almost there! My goal… by scorster
Actually, transposition by voice would probably be the most sensible way to meet this need.
There are a few wrinkles. The existing stem direction algorithm when there are two voices on a staff would need to be overcome.
But I think this is an approach that should be looked into.
Actually, there are many properties that ideally could be conferred by voice ("sound" is one that comes to mind). But perhaps the MuseScore undercarriage would not be able to easily deal with that.
Doug
In reply to Actually, transposition by… by Doug Kerr
Forcing users to use voices for scordatura is a bad idea in general. It limits what the user can do with voices in cases where the scordatura is used in violin sections (which often play divisi) and stem management of the notes becomes a nightmare.
As for concerns about the limitations of using plugins is concerned. Even if this were made a native feature there will need to be a way to apply scordatura note by note as well as on selected notes. Plugins can be written to do this. They can even be interactive if you want. Look at the TempoChanges plugin. Concerns about using a plugin are unfounded.
In reply to Forcing users to use voices… by mike320
MIke,
Well said.
Doug
In reply to Forcing users to use voices… by mike320
Thanks to everyone for your comments!
I'd like to redirect all detailed discussion regarding a proposed/requested Scordatura plug-in here.
scorster
In reply to We're almost there! My goal… by scorster
Of course another valuable tool for this (and many other) project(s) would be the ability to select notes based on notated pitch range. This could be another department of the existing selection filter.
Doug
In reply to Of course another valuable… by Doug Kerr
This was discussed among the programmers in the last week but I don't know where it might go.
Some ideas to discussion.
In my opinion, scordatura notation is special kind of tablature notation.
Notation an sound
In my personal experience, it is not very good to retune scordatura sore itself.
- there is limit 3 semitones
- when inserting notes, it confuses me, if it sounds different, than it is written
I personaly found better to write music first (in scordatura) and then transcribe it to to sounding staff. In fact, it can be done by couple of clicks. I wrote how to, where this technique is described. And this transcribed staff sounds correct, of course.
With same technique it is quite easy to transcribe sounding notation to scordatura.
Only problem is, that it doesn't work "on the fly". This is, what (in my opinion) plugin can do - transcribe it on the fly, and user can switch which one want to hear, if scordatura staff, or transcribed staff.
Notation
There are possible ambiguities. If some note means open string, or frets on lower string.
![Need_string_data-positions.png]( "Need_string_data-positions.png")
In most cases, it is meant to play on lowest positions on fingerboard, and open strings.
![Need_string_data-real_life.png]( "Need_string_data-real_life.png")
But in real life, there exist situations, when it is meant to play in positions (for exapmle double steps, ...)
So, to avoid this ambiguities, it is necessary to work with string and frets data (tablature linked staff). And everything became clear.
![Need_string_data-real_life-data.png]( "Need_string_data-real_life-data.png")
To get correct frets data, we need to set correct string data to instruments (staves).
![Tablatures.png]( "Tablatures.png")
Scordatura staff have to be set as in standard tuning - string data: G-D-A-E
Sounding staff have to be set as scordatura tuning - string data: G-D-A-D
In this setup, we can see, both staves have same tablatures.
I hope, this way, it could be possible, to create plugin, which would read strings and frets data of one tablature and on the fly writes same data to second tablature.
I jus finished scordatura plugin, which, I hope, can be handy for various scordatura writing tasks.
It can be used with any instruments.
https://musescore.org/en/project/scordatura
In reply to I jus finished scordatura… by sammik
Hi sammik,
Thank your for alerting us to your progress and the availability of your plugin. I frequently create scordatura notation so I'm quite interested in any Musescore new scordatura features or plugins.
Some brief feedback:
While using your plugin:
Similarly, it was unclear that I had to select the treble clef or meter of a staff to edit the Tunings. And it's unclear why the Edit button is sometimes disabled.
I also noted that the "Change" button text is truncated here on the Mac.
The plugin's Translate options are always disabled.
Though the scordatura symbol option is marked experimental I was able to add one, and it looks nice.
There's a big impediment to experimenting further because, on almost any action, I get the following alert:
Documentation
Your plugin looks quite nice and the animated GIF reveals some impressive features, but I'd like to recommend additional step-by-step written documentation. Or perhaps I simply failed to find the documentation. Whatever the case, I'll be glad to help with documentation once I better understand your plugin.
Thanks!!
scorster
In reply to Thanks sammik! I frequently… by scorster
Hi scorster,
thank You for feedback
1) "I was surprised that (initially) I had to click the treble clef or meter to indicate the Scordatura and Sounding staff. Selecting a measure didn't suffice."
It should work by selecting any selement (note, rest, barline, clef, text, measure, ...). It works for me on Linux and Win too. I have no Mac, but I cant reproduce it. In fact, it is simple
sel = score.selection.elements[0];so I belive, it should work on measures too. If it really doesnt, we would need to check, what is output of code above.2) "I had to select the treble clef or meter of a staff to edit the Tunings. And it's unclear why the Edit button is sometimes disabled."
I cant repdroduce this as well.
It should be aditable by default. It shouldn't have anything with selection. It should be "readonly" after user click "Set" button. And should be aditable after click "Edit".
Edit button should be always enabled. It is disabled, only when it changes to "Set" button and tuning lenghts differs (both staves need to have same number of strings)
3) Change button - i changed its width, hope now it is OK
4) Translate should be enabled, when You are in "standard" mode and disabled in "live mode". It is used to transcribe whole part. For eaxmple, You write music in standard notation and after that, You want to transcribe it to scordatura.
5) That allert is weird. It appeared when You switched Live mode on? I disabled "save settings" part in code, please, check, if it helped.
6) I deffinitely have to write some basic documentation.
Thank You for cooperation!
In reply to Hi scorster, than You for… by sammik
Hi Sammik
Thank you. I got your revised plugin. So I can report that things are better:
re 1: FIXED: Working Staves buttons are now enabled when I have a measure selected. (Perhaps I made some misstep previously, or got steps out of order. If it happens again I try to recount the steps to replicate.)
re 2: The Edit button is now enabled. But after clicking it I can't click into the Scordatura or Standard Tuning fields. Is there some trick to that? I struggled with it previously. (UPDATE: I got into the Tuning field immediately after "Changing" Working staves, however I still can't quite replicate the moment that predicates the lockout.)
re 3: FIXED: The "Change" label is no longer truncated. (Hopefully you'll add a revision number to the plugin window—if it weren't for the fixed Change button I would have been unsure if i was using the correct version of the plugin. I decided to disable the other installed version.
re 4: Thanks for that information! Very helpful to know.
re 5: FIXED: The Recursion alert no longer appears. (Will keep you posted. I had never seen that alert previously in Musescore.)
re 6: Again, I'm glad to help with documentation. Sometimes the "beginners' mind" offers the freshest perspective.
I'm back to teaching in a few minutes, but hope to look at this again later tonight. However I [WAS] stuck at #2 and unable to set the scordatura tuning. That had happened before but somehow I got past it. Likely will again.
Generally I think tooltips are helpful, but I found them somewhat confusing in the plugin. With so much room at the bottom perhaps you could display information like Tuning Format there, and express it in greater detail. Also when writing Octave pitch numbering it's helpful to express whether Middle C is C3 or C4.
Thanks!!
scorster
In reply to Hi Sammik Thank you. I got… by scorster
scorster wrote > re 2: ... after clicking Edit I can't click into the Scordatura or Standard Tuning fields
It seems that the Tuning field lockout occurs after the plugin goes to the Main tab:
If I then click on Settings tab I can't click into the Tuning fields ... even if press the Edit button. (Shouldn't the user be able edit after pressing Edit?)
Next, if I "Change" a Working Staff, I find that I can again click into the Tuning field. Is there a reason the plugin prevents the user from changing the tuning at any time?
scorster
In reply to scorster wrote > re 2: … by scorster
Tunings should be editable after clicking "Edit". In Win and Linux they are.
If it is not, it has to be some Mac bug, I will try to fix it.
In reply to Tunings should be editable… by sammik
Hi sammik,
Tonight I worked with an existing score that used the plugin—and I found that the Edit button consistently allowed me to access the Tuning fields. (If I encounter the lockout issue again I'll try to replicate and report back.)
Copy / Paste
I was unsure if copy /paste was supposed to work in Live mode. I find that pasting in the scordatura staff sometimes populates the sounding staff.
And I noticed an issue with the Scordatura symbol and paste.
On a scordatura staff:
Result: the Scordatura symbol goes with the paste and displays over Measure 4.
All for now.
scorster
In reply to Hi sammik, Tonight I worked… by scorster
I didn't think about copy paste in live mode. Propably it translates only first note of selection. I will try to add copy paste to live mode too.
Scordatura symbol is copied, because it is part of first measure, and whole measure is copied. This is not possible to fix, sorry.
Workround is to select not first measure (range selection), but only notes and rests in that measure (list of elements).
In reply to I didn't think about copy… by sammik
sammik wrote > copy paste in live mode. Propably it translates only first note of selection. I will try to add copy paste to live mode too.
Something like that. I can't quite characterize the behaviors into a coherent description. Glad you're going to try to add copy/paste in the plugin's Live mode.
I've also noticed:
scorster
In reply to sammie wrote copy paste in… by scorster
shoud be fixed
please chcek
thx
In reply to shoud be fixed please chcek… by sammik
Excellent! Copy/paste works now in Live mode.
Dragging notes vertically on the Scordatura staff still fails to update the Sounding staff (when Source Staff = Scordatura. (Is there currently a way to choose the Sounding Staff as the source? I think the Source staff menu is always disabled.
In reply to Excellent! Copy/paste works… by scorster
Hi sammik >> Is there currently a way to choose the Sounding Staff as the source? I think the Source staff menu is always disabled.
I get it now. In Live mode the Translate section and it's menu and button are intentionally disabled, and that makes sense because Translate is the manual approach ... as opposed to the Live approach.
But perhaps the GUI could make the mutually exclusivity more obvious. For instance, if Live and Translate were "radio buttons" that enabled/disable their subsections if one exists. Like this:
Granted, plugins may have a limited choice of GUI components, but you get the idea.
scorster
In reply to Excellent! Copy/paste works… by scorster
Dragging seems to be also fixed.
I hope, it wouldnt bring some unwanted side effects.
In reply to Dragging seems to be also… by sammik
Excellent sammik. Dragging works! And I haven't encountered any side effects.
I note that, on drag, the alternate staff only updates on mouseUp (In my case the alternate staff is the sounding staff as I'm entering notes in the scordatura staff.)
I think your plugin would have a better feel and improved usability if it updates the alternate staff's display on Change.
Great work!
scorster
In reply to Excellent sammik. Dragging… by scorster
"only updates on mouseUp"
Yes, thats how plugin API works, it triggers "change" just after change is done.
In reply to "only updates on mouseUp"… by sammik
Hi sammik,
Sounds like you're saying you're unable to detect the moment that the dragged note snaps to the next pitch. If you could then, at each snap, you could update the display of the note on the alternate staff, and the notes would move in lockstep.
I pasted in my first full scordatura piece last night. Really nice to see the scordatura and sounding staff next to each other. Might get a chance to work more with it today.
scorster
In reply to Hi sammik, Tonight I worked… by scorster
Scorster wrote >> Tonight I worked with an existing score that used the plugin—and I found that the Edit button consistently allowed me to access the Tuning fields. (If I encounter the lockout issue again I'll try to replicate and report back.)
Hi sammik,
It seems that the Tuning field lockout I keep encountering may be related to newly created scores, or caused by some other circumstance that gets rectified on reopening the score.
Here's what happened today:
Result: the Edit button allowed me to edit the Tuning fields.
scorster
In reply to Scorster wrote >> Tonight I… by scorster
I cant reproduce this.
In reply to Tunings should be editable… by sammik
Hi Sammik,
I hope you are well.
After all this time I looked at your scordatura plugin recently.
I can now reliably replicate the issue where I’m unable to click into the tuning fields. I have a reasonable workarounds as well but figured you'd want to update the UI to address the tuning field issue.
I discovered that the bug occurs only when the plugin is undocked. If you always use the plugin docked that likely explains why you were unable to observed the "field lockout" I reported.
Steps to replicate:
• Under MacOS 10.3.1(a)
• Open the attached example score in MuseScore 3.6 or 3.7
• Open the scordatura plugin
• Undock the scordatura plugin
• Click anywhere on the score
• Then click on either of the plugin’s tuning fields (in Settings). Please note, when the plugin is in this state I can click directly into the tuning fields, and there is no "named" Edit button, as it always is labeled Set.
> Result: Nothing (i.e. I'm unable to click into the fields to edit them)
Click the plugin’s title bar ... or drag the plugin by its toolbar.
Then click on either tuning field (in Settings)
> Result: The field highlights as expected and is open for business.
Click anywhere on the score
Then click on either tuning field
> Result: Nothing
Click the plugin’s title bar or drag the plugin by the toolbar.
Then click on either tuning field
> Result: The field highlights as expected and again is open for business.
Activate another application
Then activate MuseScore without clicking the score
Click on either tuning field
> Result: Nothing
Click the plugin’s title bar or drag the plugin by the toolbar.
Then click on either tuning field
> Result: The field highlights as expected and again is open for business.
My workarounds are:
Thanks for looking into this!
Do you plan to update the scordatura plugin so it works for MuseScore 4?
scorster