Version 3.3 beta Palette issues

• Sep 1, 2019 - 01:03

In the palettes, More should be called edit. Clicking this allows you to add or remove items from the palette, calling it More is confusing.


Comments

I can't find how to add a time signature or key signature to the palette. I used Z to open the master palette, added a time signature, clicked more in the time signature palette and still do not have the option to add the new time signature. I get the same results if I use shift+F9 and add a key signature - I can't do it.

In reply to by mike320

For me it worked to drag directly from the master palette. But it seems to me this shouldn't be needed - if they are already in the master, they should be available in "More". And there should be a way to access the master for the purpose of creating new ones directly from "More".

The palette names are messed up. All of the palette names that should have & have &&. If you edit the name it is reverted on its own. If you open version 3.2.3 then the single & turns into _

I just realized I'm editing the advanced palette and not my custom palette. WHY???? You shouldn't be able to edit predefined palettes, that's the entire reason for these palettes and custom palettes.

In reply to by mike320

My very limited understanding is that this whole distinction is going away. The common complaint being, it was too hard to customize palettes before. Now it's much easier. Too easy? Maybe, but as far as I am concerned, only if there is no way to reset. And there is. When you edit a builtin workspace, it automatically creates a copy for you, and the original remains as it was. Seems a huge improvement to me.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

if there is no way to reset
As long as that does not include factory resets. I've spent the last 2 hours fixing my shortcuts and palettes. I opened version 3.2.3 to do something and now I once again have to fix all of my palettes again. This is rotten!

In reply to by mike320

Who says it "should" be impossible to edit the advanced workspace? Sure, that's how it was before, but I think that's exactly the problem being solved here. It was far too hard for the new user (or even experienced user who hadn't come upon this particular need before) to figure out how to customize a palette. Probably no one in the history of MuseScore ever figured out for themselves they needed to create a custom workspace first.

The use model here, as I see it, is just like how most photo and other "non-destructive" editing applications work these days. You open a file, you make changes, but those changes are actually saved to a separate copy leaving the original intact.

The crashes are obviously problematic, but the use model itself makes perfect sense to me. Start with advanced, make changes with no need to first create a custom workspace (this happens automatically for you), now you are in "Advanced_edited" except for whatever reason (most likely just a bug) it doesn't show as such until you restart. Not sure what you mean about getting the advanced workspace back - that for me happens only if I deliberately switch to it. Or, I suppose, if it crashes before saving your changes, but that too would just be a bug, not a flaw in the use model.

Editing palettes took a giant leap backwards. In version 2 I continually accidentally reordered my palette by starting to drag an item and changing my mind. In version 3 this was fixed so you had to press shift while reordering the items in the palette. Now we're back to I'll constantly reorder my palette and not be able to find anything again.

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Having played with this some more, I think I see one part of the problem and a possible solution. I would say it is indeed too easy to rearrange the palette when you are actually just trying to add a palette item but then change your mind. And for me this is for one main reason: once I drag the icon out of the palette and towards the score, at least for some palette items, there is no obvious way to tell MuseScore you've changed your mind, so the natural thing to do is just keep dragging the icon back to the palette area, and then it rearranges. The solution to this aspect of the problem is simple, I think: disable palette rearrangement once the icon has left the palette. Other palette items of course are easy to change your mind about because they are so hard to drop in the first place (I'm talking to you, articulations), but lines will drop just about anywhere.

Now, that's only a partial solution, because it's still possible to accidentally rearrange things even before the icon leaves the palette, if you change your mind that quickly, or even if your finger slips. So I'm not against the idea of re-introducing the need to hold Shift in order to rearrange. But this does take us a step backwards (back to 3.2.3, I mean) in terms of discoverability.

In 2.3.2, it was possible to rearrange just by dragging (no Shift), but there was a fail-safe in that you could still still see the original position of the icon up until the moment you released. Whereas now (including in 3.2.3), during the act of rearranging, the swap happens as you hover even before release. This was deliberate and not a bad thing in itself - it makes rearranging the palette really quick. But those factors combined - the lack of a Shift requirement, and the instantaneousness of the rearrangement - do make this feel a bit "jumpy".

There is too much space between palette names. In previous versions the name were compact and didn't waste space. Now in my normal setup I can see 4 palette names (when they're all collapsed) rather than the 11 I could see in 3.2.3.

In reply to by mike320

Got to say I disagree. I always felt things were way to cramped before. Harder than necessary to scan through, harder then necessary to click on compared to say the note buttons. From a design perspective, this is better.

Even before, it only took a couple pallets open before you had to use the scroll wheel anyway. And this encourages the user to remove pallets they don't use.

In reply to by Joshua Pettus

I would agree the old palettes were too cramped, but I think this goes too far in the other direction. My preferred working method is to be in Advanced workspace or a custom workspace that adds a couple of additional palettes (so a large number of palettes) but to always have only one palette open at a time (meaning, I rely on the "single palette" option to automatically close one palette when another opens). With this set up, I virtually never need to scroll the palette window. I can open and close the entire window as needed, undock, and never see anything more than I need to see, and never have to scroll to find what I want.

The extra space in the new palettes unfortunately, means they don't fit without scrolling even when they are all closed. I do like the idea of a little breathing room, it does mean the labels easier to see, but to me there is now about twice as much as necessary to get that benefit.

The triangles at the left side of the palette names is also a waste of space and serve no purpose except to hide the right end of the names of the palettes when the palette box is made narrower.

The workspace dropdown is totally illogical. It took me a while to understand what it was even though it looks like the one that used to be at the bottom of the palettes. Thankfully it can be hidden like any other toolbar.

I think a screen shot of my typical work view would help to explain some of this.

work screen.png

I actually have the tabs on the bottom left side a little wider than normal so you can see them. This enable me to make the zoom about 150% so it's comfortable on my eyes.

I'm now trying to move items out of the lines palette. It's nearly impossible. There is a little rectangle in the "More" palette that is the destination. The sweet spot is about 1 pixel square. I've see the cursor change, but the second I release the mouse it moves a micrometer off of the sweet spot and I still can't drop anything there.

I could be wrong, but I don't think it was intended you'd use the "More" window for removing things, that seems to be almost an afterthought. Pretty sure the trash can is intended to be the way to do that. Also, the "More" window seems to be about more than just adding to the palett, it's also for adding to your score. So you can have a limited selection of dynamics (for instance) in your main palette but easily get to the rest.

OS: Windows 10 (10.0), Arch.: x86_64, MuseScore version (64-bit): 3.3.0.8206, revision: 6dcd22b

A few issues:

  1. Too much space between palette names.
  2. No "Single Palette" option.
    Note: 1 and 2 are important for those with smaller monitors, especially when using a split screen: for example when transcribing from a pdf to MuseScore.
  3. Can't clear excess (blank) palettes from "Add more palettes" area?
  4. There are duplicate "&" characters in palette names.

it would be useful for the user to know which workspace s/he was in without having to go into View > Workspaces. In previous versions, the title of the workspace was displayed below the palette area.

Hi guys,

Just wanted to say hello and thank you for your input so far. Even though this is an early beta version - some of the stuff you've pointed out has been very useful. More to come!

One problem I'm having (Macbook Pro, Mojave) is that the app is constantly crashing. Even the act of dragging something from the 'More' dropdown into the Palettes causes a crash. Anyone else having problems of this severity?

In reply to by Tantacrul

Thanks for your work on this! As with any other significant changes, there will be some growing pains, but I can definitely see this will be a good thing on many counts.

For me, the two lines of code Dmitri fixed in one commit took me from almost constant crashes to haven't crashed yet, so I'm now able to actually use the current 3.3. builds.

Now that the master builds don't crash, I'm able to use this enough to get soma better sense of it. Most of the points I see as a possible concerns are already raised here and in other threads:

  • too much space between palettes, especially when closed (I want to see all palette labels on screen at once)
  • also the appearance of wasted horizontal space (the old palette cells stretched to fit the window)
  • I really want "Single Palette" option back
  • the animation effect on scrolling is counterproductive - too hard to control scrolling
  • the placement of the workspace selector does not make much sense (doesn't even fit on toolbar for me fullscreen)
  • placement of the trash can icon for palette cells doesn't make sense (it may scroll offscreen)
  • possibly too easy to accidentally rearrange things

I don't recall if anyone else mentioned this, but also, I miss being able to open/close a palette by clicking its name as opposed to the icon, and don't see any obvious reason this couldn't be reinstated. That's actually the one that bugs me the most, frankly.

What I like is, well, really a lot, but just to be explicit

  • the elimination of the need to create a custom workspace before one begins customization
  • the ease of adding palettes (including re-adding deleted palettes)
  • the ease of adding elements to a palette (including re-adding deleted elements)
  • the ease of hiding a palette
  • the ease of deleting elements from a palette (just realized the Delete key works!)
  • palettes are keyboard accessible
  • palettes are screenreader-friendly

Once the kinks are worked out, I see this being a big success usability-wise. Right now, it reminds me more than a little of the gnashing of teeth over automatic placement during the beta and early days of 3.0, but we barely hear a peep about it anymore except in the context of, reasons people are glad they updated from MuseScore 2.

In reply to by mike320

They are. At least, they have been every time I've tried it. Even items I had added myself, which maybe is overkill? Or at least, there should be a way to remove elements from "More". Also to permanently remove custom palettes you added then hid (currently they always show as options under "Add more palettes").

In reply to by Marc Sabatella

Something else I forgot - I see myself moving back to something more like the basic workspace, less clutter, and the "missing" elements are just a "More" button away. But, the one thing missing from this currently is a way to access the facility for creating new key or time signatures. I gather that is part of the master plan, and at that point the master palette could be retired - well, hmm, except the Symbols palette. Maybe it's time to expose that on the regular palette, even if it's just empty by default or containing a few token symbols and then the More button brings up the whole nicely-organized Symbols page of the master palette.

Bonjour, je ne parle pas des palettes mais de transpositions, je me suis rendu compte que le Do peut passer à Do b sans descendre la note au si, c'est pas correcte à mon avis

First, I like the idea of the "More" item, that you can easily reach seldom-used items and quickly use them in your score. But I have some issues with the "More" item and its popup:

1) More should not be an item on the palette itself, it should be under the ... menu in the upper right of the palette. Because a) it's an action, not a palette item, and b) on many of the palettes it causes an entire row to be added, which wastes room when you want to have several palettes open.

2) More should be shown as disabled in some way if there are no more items available.

3) After opening the "more" popup, I clicked all over the place trying to get rid of it and concluded it was broken. Later I accidentally clicked on More, and voila it closed. Frustrating and confusing because it's nonstandard UI design. It would be okay to either close the popup by clicking outside it, OR show an open/close caret on the More item (just like beside the palette name).

OS: Windows 10 (10.0), Arch.: x86_64, MuseScore version (64-bit): 3.3.0.8332, revision: b382ebd

A few issues:

  • The workspace dropdown list is not ideally positioned, as it takes space away from the document area. Could it be returned to the bottom of the palette area (as in MS2)?
  • Clicking on the palette name doesn't open or close the palette.
  • Need to be able to delete excess palettes in the "Add palette" window.
  • An option to hide/display the Search box/Add palette area?

On the plus side:

*There is now a "Single palette" display option.
* The layout looks neat, but perhaps the spacing could be a little tighter?

In reply to by geetar

Plus:
If the user clicks on one of the empty areas of the palette (or clicks on the palette-name) : The palette background color turned to blue (bluish). If clicks again: The background color tuned to white (very light grey).
What does that do? (If user's confusion doesn't mean it works)

And targeting the small triangle instead of the palette-name is a good exercise for mouse using.

Bonuses:
+ The three-dots on the right side look more important than that little triangle, don't you think?
+ The user still has to search and find the menus to delete the (automatically) added workspaces. (is useful if a right-click menu is added here)

In reply to by Ziya Mete Demircan

I know it is currently by design that you can't open a palette by clicking it, because it is intended that there be other operations that can be performed. Right now Delete is the only obvious one - and it works with the Delete key, no need to find menus. But clicking is also a starting point for keyboard navigation. And that gets to the point about color: blue apparently means it is "selected" and hence a candidate for deletion, whereas light gray means only that it is where the keyboard navigation is. Not sure if there is a reason this distinction needs to be made, though.

I definitely agree I'd like the palettes easier to open, though. Click followed by right arrow does it, but double-click could too. It does with most similar collapsible list widgets it seems to me.

In reply to by geetar

OS: Windows 10 (10.0), Arch.: x86_64, MuseScore version (64-bit): 3.3.0.8331,revision: b45221c
In 3.3 Beta 2: Situation: Light theme. Palettes visible (none open). Toolbars not visible. Go to View > Toolbars. Click e.g. 'Note Input'. Result: Palettes are partially redrawn in Palettes+black.png black. A click on the canvas redraws the paletttes correctly but not always. If not: a click on the black part of the Palettes redraws them correctly.
Are there other users who experience this inconvenience?

In reply to by geetar

May be the little triangles - for instance in front of 'Clefs' - could be positioned more to the left.
In full screen mode (on my 1920x1080 screen) they start at pixel x=22 leaving an empty column of 6 mm wide.
Why not start more to the left, preferably at pixel x=0?

Hello everyone, i have a small question. Are you planning to leave the workspaces dropdown list in a separate toolbar? To me it seems it leaves a lot of empty space and takes up space from the document area, maybe in higher resolutions its not a big deal but for smaller screens its noticable.

In reply to by Ziya Mete Demircan

I just realized that you can drag the workspaces bar into the note input bar. By default it looks like your screenshot, its probably better to put everything into the same bar by default but its a minor issue.
Another question, is there a way to disable the animation in the palettes? Maybe its just me but i like the 'instantaneous' feel of the old version.

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