4/4 shouldn't really do that, though. The more common rule is, beam in two-beat groupings if only eighths are involved. When sixteenths are involved, groupings should be beat by beat. That goes just as well for 2/4 as for 4/4.
But it's worth noting that there really isn"t a correct way of beaming the example in questipn. The dotted eighth needs to be broken up as a sixteenth tied to an eighth. Which is to say, that's how it should have been entered; I've not saying MuseScore should be in the business of breaking notes up automatically. But as it is, there is no way to cleanly break up the beam groups by beat.
I disagree. If you enter a dotted eighth, MuseScore should show you a dotted eighth as long as it fits in the measure - it shouldn't be in the business of changing your input. There are times, after all, when you might *want* this notation - consider a measure of 4/4 consisting of two dotted quarters and quarter (which isn't technically correct but is nevertheless sometimes used). It has to be up to the user to choose the note values he desired, and MuseScore should respect that.
On the other hand, a separate command (perhaps a plugin) that could examine a selected region and re-write it for you - obeying conventions such as that, perhaps also using some sort of heuristic to respell accidentals - could be a useful aid.
Yes, such a plugin would definitely be useful, but in the end, it is the software's responsibility to make sure that a score is being correctly written, regardless of the personal preferences of some musicians that don't line up with basic music theory.
My suggestion would be that the "non-conforming" behavior would be the option and not the norm through the means of a feature enabling them to ignore score writing conventions.
Otherwise a lot of users won't even know how a score is to be written correctly and they'll just write hogwash.
I'm very curious how Sibelius and Finale handles this, do any of you know or have current access to the demo?
I'm working from a work computer and because of that I can't install anything on it, I can only run the MuseScore nightlies.
And in regards to software, I challenge you to have a look at how Sibelius and Finale deal with this, I'm willing to bet they change it or not let you input wrong notation such as this, especially Sibelius.
Finale Notepad 2009 does allow 2 dotted crotchets in a 4/4 measure. It does not allow a 3rd at all, i.e. doesn't split it into a crotchet in one and a quaver in the next. I must say here MuseScore is superior.
Nightlies are always portable (in the sense that they don't need any installation) and the 1.2 portable App is not to be found anywere near the nightlies, but next to the other 1.2 versions
I have used FInale for many years (early 90's). It most definitely does not change your notes and never has. Nor does Sibelius. Nor do any of the other dozen or so notation programs I've used over the poast few decades. They all rely on the user to enter things correctly.
There is simply no way MuseScore should be in the business of changing your input. It's important to allow users to create the notation they want, and if that means they can shoot themselves in the foot sometimes, so be it. Just as these programs will all allow you to write a D major triad as D Gb A rather than D F# A.
Now, things that can easily be handled automatically and then overriden manually manually - like beaming - are handled gracefully by all these programs, except that as I mentioned above, MuseScore tries to beam in two-beat grouping even when mixed eighths sixteenths are involved, which is counter to standard practice. That much should definitely be improved. So if you enter eighth, two sixteenths, eighth, two sixteenths, MuseScore should definitely break the beam on the beat, and it doesn't currently. But no way should it be refusing to allow you to enter the type of note you specify.
Well, I don't know about Notepad 2009, have you checked the very latest version???
Of course I know nightlies are portable, that's why I'm using them, but the portable version you reffered to is right next to them on the same page located at http://musescore.org/en/download
On the same page, but on that pager pretty far appart from one another and next to all other 1.2 versions. And no I have not tested a later version of Finale Notepad, and won't.
I'm not talking about old or early version of music notation software, have you checked any of the latest trials? I think not.
And I don't see why MuseScore shouldn't be in the business of changing one's input to the correct beaming, or at least signify that it is being entered incorrectly.
MuseScore should also teach correct beaming through this, because otherwise people just remain dumb.
The triad thing intrigues me as I've not tried doing that again, but I would say it would be honest of software nowadays to signify incorrect input at least.
I'm not saying it should refuse your input, but it should change it to the correct beaming automatically retaining the same length of time you want to enter.
That would really be helpful, a sort of an auto-correct feature that word processors use.
Just try writing something incorrect in the latest version of Microsoft Word, often times it will correct it for you and it will most certainly ALWAYS warn you when you're entering words the wrong way.
Speaking of this, a beaming "dictionary" would be a nice feature to have so that the software knows what to do and one doesn't end up producing redundant scores.
auto -correction is a word processor is the first thing I switchj of, as it often guesses wrongly. Having a swiggly red line under a word is OK and having corrections available at a rightlick os good, but don't let it change my input automatically
I'm sorry but the Portable thing is the first thing you see when you browse to http://musescore.org/en/download nobody could miss that, you actually have to scroll through seeing that to get to the nightlies.
How could anyone miss it?
And furthermore, I have no interest in the stable 1.2 version, I always use the latest nightly on a daily basis, it's better for me due to the added features and it's better for the developers because I'm testing their code consistently.
The link to the portable version is pretty small and kind of buried under the other Windows link - it's very easy for most people to miss. I'm glad you found, but do realize that lots of other people have missed it. Plus, realize there are other ways of accessing the nightlies aside from that page, which is pretty new, actually. I think that's why people assumed you weren't aware of the portable version - it really is not that well known. Anyhow, it's not a big deal. Now that we all know you are aware of the portable version, we can expect you to be able to run it for comparison purposes in order to better follow these discussions and understand what might or might not have changed.
This discussion is sterile and this is the issue tracker, not a place for a discussion, we can discuss on the forum http://musescore.org/en/forum/ When creating an issue, please don't use irony but facts, choose a descriptive title, describe what you do, what you see, what you expect, or don't create an issue. It makes life easier for developers.
Well, jojo-Schmitz brought a pretty useless subject into the discussion, I agree with that.
I didn't use irony, I used facts.
I never saw that feature request, and it is not what I am looking for, I am looking for a grid that warns the user (if not auto-corrects) wrong notation input while retaining the same length of time desired.
I'll make a nice descriptive feature request out of this tomorrow, don't worry, I've wasted enough time in here today.
Comments
4/4 time always joins notes in two-beat groupings so I suspect the same rule is being applied to 2/4.
4/4 shouldn't really do that, though. The more common rule is, beam in two-beat groupings if only eighths are involved. When sixteenths are involved, groupings should be beat by beat. That goes just as well for 2/4 as for 4/4.
But it's worth noting that there really isn"t a correct way of beaming the example in questipn. The dotted eighth needs to be broken up as a sixteenth tied to an eighth. Which is to say, that's how it should have been entered; I've not saying MuseScore should be in the business of breaking notes up automatically. But as it is, there is no way to cleanly break up the beam groups by beat.
Why does it even allow this input anyways? It should automatically break in the correct way, that's what I was saying also.
I disagree. If you enter a dotted eighth, MuseScore should show you a dotted eighth as long as it fits in the measure - it shouldn't be in the business of changing your input. There are times, after all, when you might *want* this notation - consider a measure of 4/4 consisting of two dotted quarters and quarter (which isn't technically correct but is nevertheless sometimes used). It has to be up to the user to choose the note values he desired, and MuseScore should respect that.
On the other hand, a separate command (perhaps a plugin) that could examine a selected region and re-write it for you - obeying conventions such as that, perhaps also using some sort of heuristic to respell accidentals - could be a useful aid.
Yes, such a plugin would definitely be useful, but in the end, it is the software's responsibility to make sure that a score is being correctly written, regardless of the personal preferences of some musicians that don't line up with basic music theory.
My suggestion would be that the "non-conforming" behavior would be the option and not the norm through the means of a feature enabling them to ignore score writing conventions.
Otherwise a lot of users won't even know how a score is to be written correctly and they'll just write hogwash.
I'm very curious how Sibelius and Finale handles this, do any of you know or have current access to the demo?
I'm working from a work computer and because of that I can't install anything on it, I can only run the MuseScore nightlies.
It is not any program's business to change the user's input, unless it absolutly has to (like a measure flowing over)
the current MuseScore 1.2 is available as a portable App, BTW. Just in case you didn't know...
Of course I knew that, I use some apps from PortableApps.com as well, but that does not give me portable nightlies.
How did you think I missed that since I'm always clearly using nightlies, the portable version is just there near the nightlies.
Sheesh...
And in regards to software, I challenge you to have a look at how Sibelius and Finale deal with this, I'm willing to bet they change it or not let you input wrong notation such as this, especially Sibelius.
Finale Notepad 2009 does allow 2 dotted crotchets in a 4/4 measure. It does not allow a 3rd at all, i.e. doesn't split it into a crotchet in one and a quaver in the next. I must say here MuseScore is superior.
Nightlies are always portable (in the sense that they don't need any installation) and the 1.2 portable App is not to be found anywere near the nightlies, but next to the other 1.2 versions
I have used FInale for many years (early 90's). It most definitely does not change your notes and never has. Nor does Sibelius. Nor do any of the other dozen or so notation programs I've used over the poast few decades. They all rely on the user to enter things correctly.
There is simply no way MuseScore should be in the business of changing your input. It's important to allow users to create the notation they want, and if that means they can shoot themselves in the foot sometimes, so be it. Just as these programs will all allow you to write a D major triad as D Gb A rather than D F# A.
Now, things that can easily be handled automatically and then overriden manually manually - like beaming - are handled gracefully by all these programs, except that as I mentioned above, MuseScore tries to beam in two-beat grouping even when mixed eighths sixteenths are involved, which is counter to standard practice. That much should definitely be improved. So if you enter eighth, two sixteenths, eighth, two sixteenths, MuseScore should definitely break the beam on the beat, and it doesn't currently. But no way should it be refusing to allow you to enter the type of note you specify.
Well, I don't know about Notepad 2009, have you checked the very latest version???
Of course I know nightlies are portable, that's why I'm using them, but the portable version you reffered to is right next to them on the same page located at http://musescore.org/en/download
On the same page, but on that pager pretty far appart from one another and next to all other 1.2 versions. And no I have not tested a later version of Finale Notepad, and won't.
I'm not talking about old or early version of music notation software, have you checked any of the latest trials? I think not.
And I don't see why MuseScore shouldn't be in the business of changing one's input to the correct beaming, or at least signify that it is being entered incorrectly.
MuseScore should also teach correct beaming through this, because otherwise people just remain dumb.
The triad thing intrigues me as I've not tried doing that again, but I would say it would be honest of software nowadays to signify incorrect input at least.
I'm not saying it should refuse your input, but it should change it to the correct beaming automatically retaining the same length of time you want to enter.
That would really be helpful, a sort of an auto-correct feature that word processors use.
Just try writing something incorrect in the latest version of Microsoft Word, often times it will correct it for you and it will most certainly ALWAYS warn you when you're entering words the wrong way.
Speaking of this, a beaming "dictionary" would be a nice feature to have so that the software knows what to do and one doesn't end up producing redundant scores.
auto -correction is a word processor is the first thing I switchj of, as it often guesses wrongly. Having a swiggly red line under a word is OK and having corrections available at a rightlick os good, but don't let it change my input automatically
Try the latest version of Microsoft Office, LibreOffice or OpenOffice, you'll be surprised.
The fact that the feature performed poorly in the past is not an excuse to not have it implemented.
At least a notification that notes are being beamed wrong would be nice, just like the red underlining in Microsoft Office versions.
I'm sorry but the Portable thing is the first thing you see when you browse to http://musescore.org/en/download nobody could miss that, you actually have to scroll through seeing that to get to the nightlies.
How could anyone miss it?
And furthermore, I have no interest in the stable 1.2 version, I always use the latest nightly on a daily basis, it's better for me due to the added features and it's better for the developers because I'm testing their code consistently.
I'd bet that even in those latest version it can get switched of. And I'm sure I would.
Of course it can get switched off, but only people like you will like to do that, I love the feature.
I never said it can't get switched off.
The link to the portable version is pretty small and kind of buried under the other Windows link - it's very easy for most people to miss. I'm glad you found, but do realize that lots of other people have missed it. Plus, realize there are other ways of accessing the nightlies aside from that page, which is pretty new, actually. I think that's why people assumed you weren't aware of the portable version - it really is not that well known. Anyhow, it's not a big deal. Now that we all know you are aware of the portable version, we can expect you to be able to run it for comparison purposes in order to better follow these discussions and understand what might or might not have changed.
I never test older versions, I only use the very latest nightly and report my findings on that.
This discussion is sterile and this is the issue tracker, not a place for a discussion, we can discuss on the forum http://musescore.org/en/forum/ When creating an issue, please don't use irony but facts, choose a descriptive title, describe what you do, what you see, what you expect, or don't create an issue. It makes life easier for developers.
Thant being said, and just in case you missed it, we have a feature request open for customizable beam rules #7491: An option to choose how you want to group notes in a measure. Nobody tackled it yet. Patches are welcome.
I close this issue.
Well, jojo-Schmitz brought a pretty useless subject into the discussion, I agree with that.
I didn't use irony, I used facts.
I never saw that feature request, and it is not what I am looking for, I am looking for a grid that warns the user (if not auto-corrects) wrong notation input while retaining the same length of time desired.
I'll make a nice descriptive feature request out of this tomorrow, don't worry, I've wasted enough time in here today.