Save button in MuseScore 4

• Dec 18, 2022 - 06:06

Just installed the update to MuseScore 4, looking everything over. Am I just blind or was the save button for the toolbar taken out of this version?
It's not impossible I'm just overlooking it, I didn't notice where the undo button got moved to right away, but I can't for the life of me find the save button. I see save under file>save, and I know there's an auto save, but out of habit and expediency, with a dash of caution i like having a button to give a quick hit when I'm thinking about it and have the peace of mind my work is saved, without giving the action too much conscious thought.

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• Dec 20, 2022 - 02:24

Why in the world would anyone take that out? It's one of the most common features found in a program where the work needs to be saved; and presumably well used - especially by anyone who wants to know they have actually saved their work.
Sure, I've had my butt saved by an autosave, but I've also had my share of times where those systems fail; and I'd rather be able to simply know the work won't be lost.

And the irony that the submit button for this forum actually says "Save" isn't lost on me either...

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• Dec 20, 2022 - 10:56

I've got a bunch of programs that don't have a save toolbar icon by default. Word and SketchUp for example. I also have a plethora of programs that do have that icon, but hardly ever use it.

Yes, the save function is used a lot; but that is still there. It lives both in the File menu (as in every other program) and has the universal default shortcut (Ctrl/Cmd+S) pre-assigned to it.

But as stated before, it would be nice to at least have the option to add it back in by customization for those users that miss it. As such I've opened a feature request/task for it: https://github.com/musescore/MuseScore/issues/15426

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• Dec 22, 2022 - 07:46

Yes, this is a product of the 90s. But. Why not leave this to the user? I personally miss it a lot. It's annoying that it can't be displayed. OK. By default, it should not be there, but it should be possible to display it. This will make the program user-friendly. Thank's!

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• Dec 22, 2022 - 11:16

I discovered that in Musescore 4 not only the save-button has disappeared, the complete toolbar with "file operations" isn't there anymore...............
In my opinion that's very strange. In nearly every program there are buttons to open, save, print, create.
Why not bring back these usefull buttons in Musescore 4?????????

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• Dec 22, 2022 - 11:53

Why didn't the creators of the program leave it up to the users to decide what they wanted to display? For example: if someone requires the save button, you should be able to display it.

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• Jan 5, 2023 - 04:59

I note that the menu still has the file-operation toolbar icons next to it, which should only be there if the toolbar alternates actually exist. Doesn't this Tantamounttocruelty person understand consistency, or does it only apply to things that he personally has noticed?

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• Jan 5, 2023 - 05:42

Wait. What my copy has is a menu bar that looks like MS3. The functions you miss from the tool bar have been moved to Edit. It's called consolidation. It helps unclutter the work space. This is just like major professional software. Word and Sibelius to name only two. It is extremely consistent. Just not what you are used to. So the buttons are in a different place. MS3 seems backwards to me in some of these respects. But I just went with it.

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• Jan 5, 2023 - 06:07

I don't know what version of Word you're using, but my 2022 copy still has a Save button, along with a full and robust toolbar with buttons for a wide array of features, subdivided into sections you can scroll through; instead of using the old File|Edit|Format drop down menus.
Seriously, come to think of it, the drop down menu is WAY older than the Save icon. I used to use that as a kid running programs off MS Dos in the 80s...
🤔🤨

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• Jan 5, 2023 - 20:45

Screenshots attached.
And honestly, I hadn't really thought about it much until now, but in a discussion of keeping up with the times or whatever and workflow simplicity, the MS suite toolbar ribbon or whatever you want to call it is arguably the model that should be followed. You can seamlessly scroll through the different sections and quickly find the options you want to utilize with the click of a button. Falling back on the File menu system, which seems to be the predominant suggestion for basic functions like saving is arguably going backwards; because again, the drop down menu system the file toolbar is based on goes back DECADES, and is comparatively more antiquated than the Save button.
There's also something to be said about a customizable workspace. Don't drop a feature just because "you" don't *think other people are going to use it. If it's a common feature, at least leave the option for other users to enable for THEIR convenience.

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Word Save Button.jpg 45.84 KB
Word Version.jpg 58.21 KB

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• Dec 22, 2022 - 19:22

Μου λείπουν πολύ τα κουμπιά "Save" "Open" όπως και το "Undo" από τη συνηθισμένη θέση του!
Μια λύση θα ήταν να μπορούμε μόνοι μας να επεξεργαζόμαστε και να τοποθετούμε τα κυριότερα κουμπιά στη θέση που θέλουμε.
Κάποια πράγματα καλό είναι να μην αλλάζουν όταν τα έχουμε συνηθίσει τόσο πολύ και σε τόσες πολλές εφαρμογές.
Επίσης μου λείπει η προεπισκόπηση εμφάνισης των γραμματοσειρών στη λίστα επιλογής τους και η δυνατότητα αντιγραφής/επικόλλησης τους για ευκολότερο ψάξιμο παρότι υπήρχαν σε παλιότερες εκδόσεις.
Πολύ κρίμα να γίνεται δυσκολότερη αντί για ευκολότερη η εργασία!

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• Dec 25, 2022 - 00:07

Seriously, Musescore 4 is what I would expect if I were to install a version of Musescore that was a couple of generations older, before features were added or streamlined.
No save button, you can't orient the properties panel along the bottom or automatically have access to font styling when adding text; you can't resize the program window properly. It seems to be one convenience after the next that's missing from this version. The customization options aren't very user friendly. What exactly was updated to make Musescore "better"?

Literally the only reason I updated was because I was having an issue in Musescore 3 where the letter V automatically hid everything; and I mean everything, even if you were adding lyrics or text and used the letter V in that text, the letter would be missing and the text box became invisible; and this wasn't assigned in the shortcuts, so I couldn't figure out how to get it to stop. I was going to post to the forum to try and figure it out, until I saw there was a new version released within a couple of days of experiencing this problem; so I figured, what the heck. But this new version is almost as big a pain.

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• Dec 25, 2022 - 01:01

So...MS4 doesn't look or work the same way MS3 does. It also doesn't work or look like two other notation programs I am familiar with. Features found in MS3 aren't present (yet) in MS4. Things got moved around. Longtime users of Sibelius have been through at least 4 upgrades that changed many things. Each time, people complained. The new version was unusable or too different or things got moved to a too different place. Some people quit using it. Most got over it and moved on and figured it out.
In your case, I think I might worry more about your letter V problem. That is interesting to me.

What is better about MS4. I would not pretend to understand the inner workings. I just know that I write for orchestra playback. Muse Sounds have their problems. But in general they give my full orchestra fortes a lot more punch and power. Solo sounds are sloppy.

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• Dec 25, 2022 - 23:21

I also request that an option be added to allow display of the Save icon. I work in a lot of programs and remembering all the shortcuts is something I would prefer to not have to do. In any event, I am very impressed with overall look and functionality of MuseScore 4.

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• Mar 11, 2023 - 15:42

I'm pretty sure the person working on MuseScore 4 is working very hard and has good motivations, but I think as a sign of respect to the whole community, it doesn't sound right to just ignore everybody else' opinion about this issue. It's very scarry indeed if a single person can decide what is good for everybody else and there can't be any discussion about it. Very scarry in my opinion. Sounds like : If you don't like what I want get out!

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• Mar 20, 2023 - 01:11

In general, when the save button is removed from applications, it's because there is an auto-save feature. Does anybody know if it's being considered to have Musescore auto-save scores?

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• Mar 20, 2023 - 02:16

There is an auto-save; it's been there since at least Musescore 3 as far as I'm aware (I just don't know when it was implemented or if it was part of Musescore 2). But I've had plenty of issues where the autosave just wasn't sufficient, either because it didn't save at the right time or was corrupted or whatever, and huge chunks of work were lost; and could be avoided if not for a quick click on an easy to access button, that you don't have to give much thought to.
When I'm working in a program that doesn't have a quick save icon, like Photoshop, I don't save nearly as often as I do in Word; and Photoshop doesn't have an autosave, while Word does. When a button is right there and easy to access, and is used frequently enough, it becomes more of a reflex to use it that you don't have to think about; which just isn't the case using the drop down menu, or even a keyboard shortcut.

At the very least, let it be a customization option that people add it back to the toolbar, if it's not going to be there by default. Why take it away entirely, and not give people who do use it the option to have it?

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• Mar 20, 2023 - 10:47

I'm with you. I don't like the keyboard shortcut because it's easier to fumble it (hit the wrong key) and especially because there's no visual feedback that the save happened (at least not on my computer which is quite fast). When I click a button, it reacts. That not only assures me that I've accomplished the save, but helps to imprint upon my mind that I did it (which helps me to keep a regular pace of doing it).

Having said that, I haven't had the bad experience you have had regarding the autosaves losing a significant amount of material. Are you aware you can configure Autosave to save as frequently as once per minute?

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• Mar 20, 2023 - 13:31

The feedback is, the asterisk in the filename on where it displays on the score tab - an asterisk means there are pending changes, no asterisk means there it has been saved. This usage of asterisks, like the shortcut, is standard across pretty much all applications on all operating systems.

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• Mar 20, 2023 - 16:53

I hadn't noticed that (in Musescore); and yes, it's definitely helpful, and I'm glad to know about it. As for being universal, however, the first other app I checked was Microsoft Word -- because it's the other document-creating app that I currently use next most often to Musescore -- and it doesn't do it. Same with Powerpoint, and presumably the rest of the Office apps. As we discussed once before, the Office apps are among the most-used software programs in existence.

I am using a 2016 version of Office -- it's entirely good enough for my needs -- so it's always possible that Microsoft has adopted the asterisk indicator since the 2016 version. Maybe someone else can say.

Word and Powerpoint do, I discovered, both provide an after-the-fact indication of Save status in their Undo icon, which is visible (on the title bar) but disabled when there are no changes to undo, and enabled when there are changes.

My password utility does use the asterisk indicator, which I hadn't realized, so that will be useful to know, too.

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• Mar 21, 2023 - 13:01

>> Word and Powerpoint do, I discovered, both provide an after-the-fact indication of Save status in their Undo icon, which is visible (on the title bar) but disabled when there are no changes to undo, and enabled when there are changes. <<

Actually, I just discovered that the enablement or not of the Undo button is not a reliable indicator or the Save status of an Office document. Instances of the latter allow you to undo changes made in the current editing session even after saving the file. So enablement of the Undo button indicates that there are changes made during the current editing session that can be undone -- not necessarily that there are changes that haven't been saved.

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• Mar 20, 2023 - 23:36

How is removing features that are in fact still commonly used,or at least not providing the flexibility for users to customize and enable a feature they frequently use, evolving or staying at the forefront?

It's the same problem I had with the Rest Input feature. It's still something you can toggle on or off from the toolbar, but was inexplicably removed so it can't be assigned in the custom keyboard shortcuts. Just because some of these things aren't something you personally use doesn't mean they no longer get used and need to be proactively removed from the software. You're literally making the program less useful when it it legitimately has fewer features.
There were a few other things along these lines that made it take longer to do the same work in Musescore 4 than in Musescore 3; and that's not progress or evolution. That's being shortsighted. After spending way too much time trying to make Musescore 4 work, I went back to 3 and plan to stay with that until either newer versions of Musesore improve, or I find another program that actually does what I need it to do, and and does it better than Musescore 3.

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• Mar 21, 2023 - 13:38

I think it is generally recognized that adding back the option to have a save button would be a good thing, and it's being considered.

I'm not understanding what you mean about rests, though - I'm not aware of any deliberate changes there. "0" continues to enter a rest just as always, and you can customize this how you like just as always. Maybe you are running into a bug of some kind that affects some specific score? Best to discuss that in a separate thread to ask about that. I see you did start a thread a while, and I respond explaining this, but you never followed up. So maybe do that and explain what you are trying to do in more detail there.

Most things in MuseScore 4 should be faster than they were in MsueScore 3, but it doesn't indeed take a minute to get used to the changes. So feel free o start additional threads with additional questions about how to do things efficiently. MuseScore most definitely does things better than MuseScore 3 in general - the engraving quality is absolutely objectively better the playback quality is miles and miles better, and the usability is better as measured by usability testing. But again, it does take a little adjustment.

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• Mar 21, 2023 - 14:31

>> I think it is generally recognized that adding back the option to have a save button would be a good thing, and it's being considered. <<

Much better than merely adding back the Save button would be to provide a facility that gives the user flexibility in what buttons appear on a toolbar.

Word has a "Quick Access Toolbar" that can be customized in two stages. (See screen shots below.) In the first stage, there is a menu that can be dropped down from a control on the toolbar itself that offers a selection of actions for which users commonly want buttons. The user can simply check which of those actions s/he wants represented on the toolbar.

But also on that menu is a "More Commands" option which opens a page in the comprehensive File/Options dialog (analogous to Musescore's Edit/Preferences dialog). That contains a list that can be expanded to encompass basically every action that can be performed within Word: meaning, a user can put a button on the Quick Access toolbar for literally any action the program will perform on command -- including user-defined actions implemented as macros.

I realize that the full implementation of the above would represent a deluxe address of the issue. But even a scaled-back version that allows the user some kind of flexibility in what commands s/he wants to see represented on the toolbar would be a lot better than simply putting Save back.

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Quick Access Toolbar - Customize Stage 1.png 14.87 KB
Quick Access Toolbar - Customize Stage 2.png 47.64 KB

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• Mar 21, 2023 - 14:43

Indeed, the exsiting faciity to add buttons to the toolbars (see the note input toolbar) would presumably leveraged.

The idea of a mode where you can more easily access all the different actions available - for instance, to perform any command by typing the first few letters of its name, or being able to assign to buttons - is also being discussed. It's considered especially important by blind users (the search by name more so than the buttons of course).

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• Mar 21, 2023 - 14:51

>> The idea of a mode where you can more easily access all the different actions available - for instance, to perform any command by typing the first few letters of its name, <<

I used not to be a fan of typey style interfaces, but have been won over by the Windows PowerTools* facility to launch programs. By pressing Alt+Spacebar, you get a dialog to appear in the middle of your screen with an input textbox. With each letter you type you get a dropdown list of programs with matching names. So to launch Musescore 3 or 4, I type Alt+Spacebar, "mu", select the version I want if it's not already the one selected, and press ENTER. Beats the heck out of navigating my way through a huge hierarchical menu.

Of course, hierarchical menus have their place when you don't know the name of what you're looking for, or you're not sure what operations are available.

*PowerTools being a downloadable extension to Windows

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• Mar 21, 2023 - 14:44

For that matter, Word provides a facility to customize its entire menu system (see screenshot). Reaper, I am given to understand though I have only dipped a toe in the water, provides extensive configurability of virtually every aspect of its user interface. I think the motive behind that is to encourage users to come over from competing DAWs by permitting them to bolt on an interface almost identical to the one in the program they're accustoming to using.

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Word - Customize Ribbon.png 73.14 KB

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• Apr 1, 2023 - 03:46

I'll throw in my vote to restore the usual file operation buttons - new and save, and maybe close. Whatever was there before.

Sometimes I like to be able to define my save point before attempting an operation that I am not sure will work out as I expect, such as to explode a staff into separate voices. The autosave cannot be controlled so directly. Yes, we can use the save menu or the quick key, but I rarely use quick keys because I use menu buttons. :)

Generally, I like the new interface, but I definitely missed it the first time I started editing a score in the new version.

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