finale to musescore - xml problem, lyrics problem

• Aug 30, 2024 - 17:03

Greetings. I am a recent Finale exile, just trying to look into Musescore. So here’s my problem. I created a file in Finale which consists of a single staff, a melody with lyrics underneath and chord symbols above. In a second “stanza” or “verse” I have entered numbers corresponding to ukulele frets, to show the fingering of the chords, and positioned this line ABOVE the chord symbols. When I saved the file as an xml and imported it to Musescore, everything was ok, except the line with the fret numbers was messed up: some numbers are now underneath the chord symbols, others are in the staff itself. How can this be corrected? If necessary, I can even delete the “verse” with the fret numbers and re-enter it, but I can’t even see where the lyrics are kept, if I want to view them on their own. Please advise. Thanks.

Comments

• Aug 31, 2024 - 22:19

Interesting. Did you do this manually, or were you able to automate it somehow? I see signs that it was done manually, such as the 5-note 1010101010 Bb6 in the first line. This would have to be tweaked further, since the uke only has four strings, but this is getting close. So how did you achieve this result? Thanks.

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• Aug 31, 2024 - 22:52

"Did you do this manually"
No, I really didn't want to do that. I was able to automate everything, but with a number of steps (simples or more tricky) that it would take too long to detail.
In fact, the most important constraint was that you entered fingerings as lyrics (verse 3). That's what you shouldn't have done. Why not have entered them as... fingerings, or just text? Things would have been much simpler. The lesson here: before exporting your files, make sure you don't mix things up.
And of course, you have to fine-tune things if needed. You know your score by heart, I don't :)

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• Aug 31, 2024 - 23:09

Ok, I guess that means that, for a beginner, doing whatever you did is going to be a bit too challenging, since I'm new to MuseScore, and I'm just trying to weight whether it's something I would want to invest in going forward. In answer to your suggestion that I should have entered those numbers either as fingerings or as text, I would have to say that neither would work. Fingerings, as far as my experience goes, use numbers from 1 to 4 and the numbers normally appear adjacent to individual noteheads, so it would be impossible to recreate what you see here. And to enter the fret numbers as text would be a nightmare, because of reformatting issues, and the need to enter a text block for each chord individually, and then manually adjust the line height, and the certainty that everything will have to be shifted around with subsequent revisions. So these proposals of yours don't seem especially realistic, unfortunately. What now? I should probably investigate Dorico ... Thanks for your work on this.

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• Sep 1, 2024 - 01:47

In fact, why not use the lyrics function to quickly enter blocks of fingerings. I understand the approach. Just toggle over the staff, and you're good to go.
It's function creep, which I also use sometimes. For example, using the “Figured bass” function to enter aligned fingerings below the staff (e.g. in Tablatures). But it wouldn't occur to me to use the same function to enter real figured bass ciphers in the same time, it's not designed for that, to mix things up, if you see my point.

So, it would have been perfect.... without other lyrics.... But the problem is that you've got “real” lyrics, too, which are below the staff (or even far below for the 3rd verse), and that one should be high up, above the symbols. That's making things really complicated if the score is exported, whereas in Musescore there was another very easy option. As I was talking about text, it's not the best idea for speed of execution.

On the other hand, you can use the fingering input function. In Musecore, in the Fingering palette, the first series of fingerings is placed above the notes, and you navigate with the Space key (the fingerings entered are for demonstration purposes only!)
Take a look on the GIF below at what this could have enabled you to do (in the same way as the lyrics, but without the inconvenience) :)

And of course, there's the “natural” option for a ukulele player to use fretboard diagrams. There are complete, ready-to-use palettes for ukelele provided by the Musescore community. The palette Fretboard diagrams that you can see in MuseScore contains basic guitar chords.

Video doigtés.gif

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• Sep 1, 2024 - 02:07

Thanks for your helpful reply. I hope I'm understanding it correctly. I think what you're saying is that, because I placed "verse 3" so high above "verses 1 & 2" that that is the cause of the problem.

I would have to investigate the fingering input function in MuseScore, but offhand I anticipate a problem, in that the fingering numbers would only extend to 1-2-3-4, whereas my fret numbers often require much higher numbers. Anyhow, even if there's more substance to this suggestion than I am aware of, the fact is that it would only affect newly edited files, and not the hundreds of xml files in my finale editions.

Finally, the use of fretboard diagrams is something I don't particularly endorse, because the numbers fulfill exactly the same function, are a more efficient method of communication, and require less space.

As an aside, after my earlier message to you, I decided to try importing the same file to Dorico (the entry-level free version). The result was much better, insofar as Dorico preserved the line the way I entered it. The only problem was that it stuck "verse 3" underneath the chord symbols (but still above the staff). So this is getting pretty close to what I want, and suggests that the way MuseScore handles xml imports is different from what Dorico does.

As of now, I'm still in the throes of trying to figure out whether MuseScore or Dorico might be a better home for my post-Finale existence. The signs point to Dorico, but I can't really say.

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• Sep 1, 2024 - 03:06

"I think what you're saying is that, because I placed "verse 3" so high above "verses 1 & 2" that that is the cause of the problem."

For the input process in Musescore, yes.

" and suggests that the way MuseScore handles xml imports is different from what Dorico does."

For this file, indeed, it works differently. I also see that Dorico preserves these fingerings above the staff when opening the file - images below.
But, not above the chord symbols, as you wished, and as shown in your PDF.

Secondly, I thought I read that Dorico wasn't very flexible when it came to customizing the layout?

l would need to understand why Musescore does things differently when importing this file. Why, at the very least, the fingerings are not aligned?

I advise you to open a new thread mentioning the XML format and the comparison Musescore vs. Dorico, all the while attaching these two images. And by attaching of course too the XLM file.

Musescore's format specialist, Leon Vinken, should be able to explain why Musescore imports it this way. And if there's anything to improve quickly.

  • MuseScore 4.4

    MS4.jpg

  • Dorico Pro5

    Dorico.jpg

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• Sep 3, 2024 - 11:34

@artlevine: I've just received Leon Vinken's reply. I share it here.

I quote: "I am aware of the issues described in
https://musescore.org/en/node/367730 and
https://musescore.org/en/node/367868. Will investigate and try to come up
with a solution.
FYI, both Finale and Musecore use the latest MusicXML version (4.0), although
I don't think that affects this issue. For Dorico I don't know what version
they use.
Let's keep actual discussion on the issue public by posting to the threads
mentioned above. For now, I do not yet have any firm conclusion I can share.
Best regards, Leon."

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• Sep 5, 2024 - 16:20

The issue seems to be caused by an interaction between MuseScore's MusicXML importer and its layout algorithm. MusicXML lyrics with a default-x (about a quarter of the lyrics in the attached file) get an offset, while those without default-x don't. As far as I can tell, the layout algorithm handles those differently, although the exact details are not yet clear to me.

Easiest workaround I found is to reset the entire score to default layout, select all elements of subtype "verse 3" and use the mouse to drag them to the desired location.

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• Sep 5, 2024 - 17:57

Thanks for digging into this issue. I gather that what you're suggesting is that I go back to my original Finale file, drag the "verse 3" down to a default position below verses 1 & 2, and then export the file in that state. The problem, of course, is that I have hundreds of files that would have to be so adjusted, one at a time — a prospect which I find discouraging, to say the least. So I'm still in need of a way of exporting / importing these .mxl files that doesn't require this extra work. Perhaps Dorico will provide that, I'm just trying to investigate it these days. But, with Finale wrapping up, I can't stay where I am.

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• Sep 5, 2024 - 20:17

Look, with 4.4.1, I've been able to improve the automation process. In just a few clicks and twenty seconds, it's done, just like Dorico. In the end, I fine-tuned the position of two fingering blocks. It's simple: select and move with the right arrow (more precise than the mouse...).

Video_artline.gif

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• Sep 5, 2024 - 20:49

That's interesting. The MuseScore version I downloaded a few days ago is version 4.4.0.2423900800, so it looks like you may have the advantage of a later version 4.4.1, but when I click on "update" it says my version is up to date. So that's mystery #1. Second, if I go slow enough through the video you attached, I should be able to do the same thing, which is encouraging. I note that you end up with the "verse 3" numbers beneath the chord symbols, but that's not the end of the world. I'll take a closer look, thanks.

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• Sep 6, 2024 - 00:56

OK, I just watched your video several times to follow the steps:

1) format: reset to default
2) select a lyric (= a string of 4 numbers)
3) right click: select: more
4) check: same subtype - verse 3 - OK
5) uncheck: auto-place on left margin
6) click on "appearance" and change the line offset to -6

The results, while far from ideal, are at least encouraging. But I can see that, even with this sort of rescue operation, each file is going to require a salvage operation. I'm just hoping there's something that works better, or that someone figures it out. Maybe it's easier than I presently imagine. Thanks.

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• Sep 6, 2024 - 14:42

Well, maybe not... 3.7 complains too (about the MusicXML shared furter up):

Fatal error: line 123 column 15 Element swing is not defined in this scope.

Culprit XML:

      <sound tempo="120">
        <swing>
          <straight/>
        </swing>
      </sound>
 

Not sure why it complains though, as per MusicXML 4.0 this is perfectly legal:
https://www.w3.org/2021/06/musicxml40/musicxml-reference/elements/swing/ ->
https://www.w3.org/2021/06/musicxml40/musicxml-reference/examples/strai…

Except for not being embeded in a directions tag ?!?

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• Sep 6, 2024 - 14:32

The spacing is off in the file I posted but if you copy everything in a new file it looks alright at first sight. And yes, the "not valid" complaint is probably because your file is Musicxml 4.0 and MU3.6 uses Musicxml 3.0

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• Sep 6, 2024 - 15:40

It's a real disservice to people coming from Finale to direct them to version 3, even 3.7. You're losing them more than anything else. On this simple XML file, the layout is a real mess (8 pages instead of 2), as soon as Verse 3 passes over the staff (auto-place enabled or not), the chords symbols go completely off in all directions (whereas in V4, they stay strictly on the same line) etc.
The whole thing is a mess. Frankly, it's better to bet on Léon's correction of this particular case, and on the current team's efforts to improve the XML, as written by @Tantacrul in the article quoted above, precisely in order to help Finale castaways be as little impacted as possible when repatriating their scores. Not to mention that V4 is constantly evolving and improving.
Something V3 will never do again. In short, look ahead and bet on the future.

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• Sep 8, 2024 - 18:21

Greetings to Cadiz1 & Leon, and thanks for your help with this Finale-Musescore xml problem. Just to contribute a bit more, I’ve attached two more files which are a bit more representative of the issue I’ve been experiencing. The file I sent early “Ain’t Misbehavin,” had 3 verses, of which I wanted to place verse 3 ABOVE the chord symbols. But most of the files I edit have only two verses. For that reason, I’ve attached the following files of a document with only two verses: 1) a pdf; 2) the xml file (Autumn Serenade)

I tried cadiz1’s 7 steps for tweaking the xml file:

1) format: reset to default
2) select a lyric (= a string of 4 numbers)
3) right click: select: more
4) check: same subtype - verse 2 - OK
5) uncheck: auto-place on left margin
6) click on appearance and change the line offset to -6
7) re-check - auto place

What happens is this: up to step 6, everything looks good (i.e. verse 2 is above the chord symbols), but when I click step 7, verse 2 jumps downs underneath the chord symbols (or maybe the chord symbols jump up, or both).

So, basically, I’m still stuck.

As far as learning how to produce and edit new files from from scratch, I’m more hopeful, but there’s definitely a lot to learn, esp. for someone whose editing goals are very modest.

Thanks again for your assistance thus far.

Attachment Size
autumn serenade - Bb - Score.pdf 121.95 KB
autumn serenade - Bb.mxl 7.46 KB

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• Sep 8, 2024 - 19:42

This one's easier!

  1. Format / Restore the default layout
  2. Right-click on a chord symbol / Select / More / Same subtype / Ok
  3. Disable auto-place
  4. Repeat steps 2 & 3 for fingerings/ string four numbers (Verse 2)

  5. In Properties / Appearance / Set the vertical offset to -7
    (note that the fingerings now pass over the chords symbols) :)

  6. Page layout (to mimic the layout of your PDF)

- Format/Style/ Measures: Mininum measure width (to 23)
- Apply a page break to measure 29 and in Format/Style/Page: Disable Vertical Justification of staves

Don't worry about this last point just yet, there are several ways in MuseScore to achieve a very fine, personalized page layout. This is how I did it, but I could have done it differently. But let's just say I was pretty happy with the result, so I didn't try another.

Result: 1autumn serenade - Bb.mscz

NB: Optional, but as I don't like the border of the title frame to be stuck to the notes and chords (I do this systematically for my scores and also on yours): click on the frame border / Properties panel / Increase "Gap below" value according to your preferences.

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