Add violin/fiddle-style tablature.

There is currently no violin tablature support in MuseScore at all. So this is more a feature request. I guess you got confused by the fact that one can change the staff type of a violin to tab. I believe this is a bug and it shouldn't be permitted until proper violin tab is implemented.

It would be really helpful if you could link to an actual reference, something that most violin/fiddle players agree on. Maybe they already use a software in particular? Tabledit?

"No 3L?" Hmmmm. How would you play a D-flat major scale in 1st position starting on the G string? Granted there are several different fingerings that can be employed, but many people would play the G-flat on the D string by placing their ring finger in the same spot as the F-sharp, thus creating the nonexistent 3L.

Sorry I 'm surprised with the TAB. png picture for violin: Inside there is "5th" finger, which doesn't exist in violin, moreover on E string, note F # is played with the 1rst finger in first position, as well as note F, >>> what I saw is more close to 1/2 position than a 1rst position.
And in first position, note A on E string is played with 3rd finger

It would be very nice to have a TAB feature for the violin instrument. I'm a beginner and would really need this feature added to Musescore.

Dear webternals,
I am curious to know that
1) how did you find the fiddle / violin Tablature notation? I searched in all versions by installing one by one, but didn't see in any version.
2) where did you find the option "Fiddle" which is written in the left side? No musescore supports Fiddle but just violin. Are you by chance using any other software? :)
I would be grateful to you if you kindly provide me the correct version (and download link) and procedure to add the tablature notation of violin.
Thanks for consideration. Purnendu

You can edit the name of instruments as you like. Fiddle is just another name for violin. So add violin as an instrument, then right click the name, Staff Properties, and edit it to say "Fiddle" instead.

I think you might have missed the nature of my post. I wanted to have a tablature notation displayed under the score for violin for a given piece of music. I know how to change the name of a instrument.

Two questions:
- Is this tablature generally accepted in the world of fiddle playing (where the violin is officially called "fiddle")? Or is it this person Buckey's invention (he says "my" tablature at one point in the write up)? In which case it would probably be premature to implement it.
- This tablature is obviously intended as a learning aide. But it is very complicated. I am losing him when he introduces color codes for hand positions. Wouldn't it be just as easy for the kids to learn some basic solfège (I say basic: note reading, scales, keys, accidentals, intervals) along with the first bow strokes and then directly go to standard notation? (Or alternatively: Teach them to play by ear; that would be fabulous listening training too!). If you add full fingerings to it you basically have a tablature of sorts too, don't you think? With the tablature you make them learn all the complicated stuff with high and low fingers (which requires defining a "normal" finger position; there really is no such thing) and then going on to hand positions higher than 1, color coding etc. And when they want to advance beyond the basics of violin playing (for example to choose their own fingerings) they will have to learn to play from standard notation anyway.
The whole thing reminds me a little of the "new math" that was in fashion for a while which was supposed to help kids with basic arithmetic--except it was more difficult than basic arithmetic.

@cb3: Marc's hint at how to rename a staff was adressed at Purnendu Karmakar

marc and cb3: Thanks you for your interest to reply my question.
I understand that you can edit the name of the instrument. But there is not violin tablature in musescore. I also want to have a tablature notation displayed under the score for violin. Which instrument's tablature did you use to write the violin tablature under the score? (tablature.jpg looks great and that would be sufficient to me) I shall be grateful to you if you kindly explain me the procedure to write the tablature line?

there was some violin tab support in pre 2.0 (but post 1.x) development builds, it got removed.

Purnendu,
I had to hunt for this info myself and found this link that helped. see https://musescore.org/en/handbook/tablature I had to use Ukulele tablature to make the fiddle tablature display. You have to right click on the tablature then click on properties to open up a dialogue box to rename the instrument from Ukulele to Fiddle then you have to "re-tune" each string to G3 D4 A4 & E5. After that you have to open the "fingers" palette and manually place the required finger position. As yet MuseScore doesn't have a plugin to automatically place the required finger positions as you create your score. It's difficult I know but right now it's the only way I know of creating a tablature for fiddle.

Yes I know. There was a plugin that gave the string name and finger number under the note to be played but that plugin doesn't work in 2.x

That's not how to enter tab fingerings at all! See https://musescore.org/en/handbook/tablature#inputting-new-notes.

cb3, Thanks once again. I tried to follow your procedure and link. (see the attachments). I did not use the 'linked staff', but two different independent staffs. First I typed the usual score in line one and copied and pasted into the TAB line, which gives the finger positions. Then I re-tuned the strings.
1) But I am seeing all numbers from until 7, I guess. Actually it is counting lower and higher positions as two independent. How did you manage to command musescore to count as 1L, 1, 2L, 2, 3, 3H, 4 etc, which are basically 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 in my file?
2) what would be the number of frets for violin for musescore?
3) How did you managed to write the string names to the left? (I am not seeing any specific options).

Purnendu,
The original example I gave was an illustration of a violin tablature taken from a different program called TablEdit http://www.tabledit.com
It will let you create scores but it can be a little difficult to use. I only use it to create a tablature for a tune I'm trying to learn. Depending on the key the tune I'm trying to learn is written in, TablEdit will generate the finger position accordingly. For instance, in the Key of G the notes are G, A, B, C, D, E, F#. Correspondingly the finger positions will be D string note G=3, A string note A=0, B=1, C=2L, D=3, E string note E=0, F#=1H, and G=2.
Your fingering number refer to the frets on the Ukulele. Since your tune was written in the key of D the notes are D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D. Correspondingly D string note D=0, E=1, F#=2H, G=3, A string note A=0, B=2, C#=2H and D=3. Please see the attached file of your tune.
I hope this helps.

Sorry, I am bit lost.
The last mscz file you have just sent were made in musescore or tableedit? (because I am not able to open mscz file on tableedit) . I tried to look at tableedit also, and I didn't find violin there either.
Did you edit my previous attached file on musescore?
If you are kind, would it be possible to make a screenshot of the steps, while doing? (and email me?) Possibly I am not able to understand the key trick. Anyway, here is my email: purnendu.physics@gmail.com
Thanks for your kind consideration.

You have completely ignored the 4th finger. On the G string D=4; D string, A=4; A string, E=4; and E string, B=4. These are necessary to maintain tone color in a phrase and to avoid open strings. Occasional use of an open string is okay provided it is of short duration and maintains color. The open E string is almost always avoided, though David Oistrakh uses it sparingly in fast passages in Lalo: Symphonie Espagnole. I've taken the liberty of making minor adjustments to the "Drink to Me" offering that illustrates the above concerns.

In addition, you have not allowed for positions in which there are 7 for each string. These extend the range of each string, maintain tone color, and are always really convenient making the music easier to play.

For your information, I approached this from the BEGINNER'S point of view. What you are describing is much more advanced than what a beginner is exposed to. Since I generated the tablature using TablEdit so that I could replicated it in Musescore for Purnendu, TablEdit generates the tablature as your enter a score, it too assumes that you are somewhat inexperienced with 2nd and 3rd positions. I felt that the method I used was the simplest way to enter tablature from a beginner's starting point.

Most beginning violin students start 2nd position in their 3rd year, and as such, are still considered beginners. It is a very difficult instrument to learn. If you're starting as a beginner, why not just learn to read music? Why handicap yourself with a notation that is very limited? To me, tablature not only looks more complicated, but there's a lot it cannot do. For instance, from the Sibelius Violin Concerto:

If your goal is to play only really simple music, then perhaps tablature is for you. But, if you want to do something more challenging, don't limit yourself.

I second this. However, how many people practice the Sibelius concerto? It is insanely difficult. But tablature becomes very complicated as soon as you leave first position. Hell, half position is not even included in the description quoted earlier. And it is practically unavoidable in certain keys (F sharp Major or B Major for example). One could include half position by creating a signature for double-low fingers (B Major on the A string: First finger on a#, second on b, third on c#, fourth on d#. Second finger would be double-low--low is on c natural). But it would add yet another element and make the whole even more complicated.

So the message is: Tablature will cease to be useful to you long before you start working on the Sibelius (years if not decades before). To my mind it seems genuinely easer to learn to read notes directly (with fingerings as required and adapted to the learner's skill level) rather than waste time trying to comprehend the complicated system that is a fiddle tablature.

However, "Jedem Tierchen sein Pläsierchen" as they say in German. If somebody interested is doing the work I am all for including it in Musescore. I just urgently recommend to skip tablature and go directly to regular notation when studying the violin.

Very well said, I wish I could have stated similar to this in my original post.

Right you are. I used the Sibelius excerpt because it is an extreme example where tablature won't work.

Your comment on half-position will fall upon deaf ears if you're talking to violinists. It is almost never used. In fact, most violinists deny it even exists. (Even some professionals.) Violists use half-position infrequently, and when it is used, it is to avoid sliding the first finger between say, D# and E on the D string, for instance, where for violinists, that movement is much smaller and less likely to create a smear. Viola method books will occasionally include half-position instruction, but I have never seen it in a violin method book.

I would like to offer an additional point of view on the potential usefulness of tablature for violins, violas, cellos, and contrabasses.

For non-players of these instruments who need to arrange or compose music for them, having a linked tablature staff to guide them in avoiding impossible or too-difficult fingerings would be an extemely valuable tool. I routinely use linked tablature staves when I compose or arrange music for the viols, because I play viol very poorly indeed, and do not know the fingerings without 'counting on my fingers', as it were. If I sketch in a certain arpeggio and see from the tablature that the performer would be required to cross two strings to play it, or if I write a double stop and see from the tablature that the player would be required to shift up and play at the 7th and 9th 'fret', I can reconsider what I am asking the performer to do, and try to write something more reasonable.

If a highly experienced violinist (violist/cellist/contrabassist) were to collaborate in writing the algorithm for producing such a tablature, the resulting tool in MuseScore would be formidable indeed. It would help us non-string players to write music that real string players would be able to play without cursing the idiot who wrote it. ;o)

The reason for half position is not so much to avoid the "smear" (sometimes objectionable, but mostly not) but because the constant shifting up and down of the first finger makes the intonation unstable--a major problem in the keys in question anyway.
Though I admit that often it is smarter to use third position (or another position) instead where the problem mostly goes away. But as I was taught and in my daily practice half position is indispensable.

My main point though was that violin technique (including fiddling I very much suspect) is so complex and so flexible as to defy the creation of a simple, easy to use tablature. I read Jay Buckey's piece and found the system confusingly complex while not covering bowing at all and not covering anything left hand that is outside positions 1 - 3.

That special bowing: Why couldn't you just indicate it by an articulation sign (like staccato dots; there is a whole bunch of them)? If someone wants to learn it they will have to observe a competent player--there is no way to describe it sufficiently in words--and for most learners a teacher / coach who helps with the practicing is the best method; learning fiddle playing from a book with no other resources must be hard indeed.

As far as I know, I have not been plagued by unstable intonation. I don't know what that is. My decision whether to use 1/2 position or some other is determined by what comes before and what follows:

I can testify to your assertion about learning without a teacher. I lived in a town of about 3,000 when I first wanted to learn the violin, but there was no teacher available. I used a book titled "Teach Yourself the Violin" and acquired the instrument sometime later. Once I had the violin in hand and tried out my new found knowledge - well, you can imagine my disappointment. I was already into the positions when two years later we moved to a town where I was able to get lessons. My teacher was impressed with how much I had taught myself, but I don't recommend anyone following my example. A teacher is vital. I did have one thing going for me, though: I already knew how to read music because I had learned the trumpet, trombone, saxophone, oboe, piano, and organ, all of which I dropped once I started on strings.

azumbrunn:
1 - Tablature is generally not accepted in the violin world, especially not professionally. The reason is simple, violins don't have frets, and thus the rules of tablature aren't applicable in the same way to violin, as they are to guitar and bass. You need to change how the tablature works in order to use them for violin.
There's another, bit more abstract reason as to why it's not used professionally, and that is due to the fact that it's quicker to read notation than tablature. It's faster to see the shape of a chunk of notes than to read the numbers in tablature.
2 - as learning aide I would instead recommend to find normal notation music with fingers and strings written down. You can see the notation, and it says which finger to put on which string. When you get to a higher level it will also tell you how high up you put the finger, and the better you are the less fingers are written down. So what you're saying I completely agree with.

I learned playing cello with fingerings written down, and with each book I played, I got higher and higher up the neck of the cello, and needed less and less fingerings written down. Now I can play G-clef without fingering, on cello (wow cool yea i kno) !!!

violin tablature was part of very early pre 2.0 version, but had been removed, most probably due to the above stated reasons

Yes I know violins don't have frets but the one word that you used repeatedly is "professionally". When a violinist has reached that level of skill, a tablature is not helpful and not needed since the violinist has mastered 2nd, 3rd and 4th position as well. However, I'm a beginner (trying to understand 1st position) and I've found that tablature is helpful in that it shows what finger should be placed on what string when learning a new tune. Your suggestion to use string & finger nomenclature (G1 2 3, A1 2 3...) requires the student to manually write it down on the sheet music if the tune in question is an obscure tune not readily available. A graphical representation that is a tablature schematic of what finger to put on what string is very easily referenced (visually speaking) by the beginner until such time the beginner transitions to more skilled performer.

cb3:
I can see why you find it useful, and yes, in the beginning you will learn the specific song quicker with tabs than with standard notation if you can't read it. What I think though is that you'll learn standard notation quicker if you, instead of tabs, have fingerings added to the notes. When you reach the level to where you'll be in more than one position you will find tabs unhelpful, or even obstructing, and then already knowing how to read standard will be really helpful.

My tip is aimed more for teachers than students though, so the teacher would write down the fingerings. If you learn without a teacher though, you will easily be able to find music on musescore with fingerings already written down for students. There are other sources as well, not to mention actual books written for beginner students.

The absolute only time it's recommend tabs for beginners is when the beginner is a young child in kindergarten, then I can see where the graphical representation of the strings would be useful, but even then, children who are taught by teachers usually have already learned the loose string's position in notation in the clef mostly used for that instrument. Because standard notation technically is more graphical than tabs you are usually really quick to learn where the fingers in first position fit in relation to the notes.

@cb3: Even as a beginner in first position only, you've surely already realized it's not as simple as what finger to put on what string. Play a G major scale, and your second finger on the A string will be in a certain place to play a C; play a D major scale, and the same finger on the same string will have to go in a different place to play a C#. That's the first reason why violin tab is a bad idea.

See my comment immediately above. Even for fiddlers, even in first position, C and C# are the same finger on the same string in a different place. Tab doesn't work for finger numbers, you need fret numbers.

Since you address me by name:

I agree with both your points. It seems however that teaching by tablature is quite common among fiddlers (i.e. in folk music). So why not let them have it? There is no way we can convince them, though they would indeed be wise to abandon it and use standard notation because tablature is by necessity much more complex than for instruments with frets.

As to buying music with fingerings you will hit a snag soon though: A lot of fingerings in sheet music are worthless: They are there where the solution is obvious anyway and they are missing where we would appreciate some help. And sometimes (often!) they are far from the best or even the easiest solution.

It seems a few misstatements or oversimplifications have made their way into your rant, webternals:

- "The problem is violin players classically trained only want to play what is on the sheet and are taught that 4 finger is better than an open string, they are taught 3rd position has a better tonal quality, first position is for toddlers". Only bad teachers tell their students stories like this. 4th finger is better than open strings sometimes and sometimes not. The third position sounds different from the first, not better; it depends on what you want to express with your music. More over "what is on the sheet" is only the notation, not the music. Classical players have to do tempo, phrasing, rhythm (i.e. strong and weak beats etc.), rubato and other elements to turn what is on the page to music. And, yes, they do that "out of their heads"!

- "Violin players will play very robotic". There are such players but you don't have to listen to them. There are plenty others (the good ones!). Try Gidon Kremer for an extreme example.

The argument here is not that any genre is superior to any other, the argument is that the details of violin/fiddle playing do not lend themselves easily to tablature. Hence violin tablature that covers more than the simplest beginner's needs is going to be very complicated, much more complicated than standard notation with fingerings. Plus for bowing you will need additional signs regardless. I am convinced that teaching with tablature makes progress harder, not easier in the long run.

Note also that tablature for fretted instruments translates to any fretted instrument, the only adjustment to make is the number of strings (and their tuning) and the number of frets. Violin tablature on the other hand works only for violin and viola (and only for some of the technical options). Cellists finger differently and would need a modified and even more complicated system (4th finger is not equal in pitch to the open string and in higher position the thumb is used a lot).

However, since tablature appears to be widely used even among established fiddle players it ought to be covered in Musescore.

Webternals
Violin players can comprehend folk music fine, thing is they usually play in orchestra, where that genre doesn't appear. Folk music is usually written for small ensembles. In the same way though, "the best fiddle player in the world" will probably be able to play a normal baroque piece for example, because being a good musician also means being a versatile musician. Of course they'll have preferences though.

In baroque, open string if preferred. Violin players usually learn both. You are wrong. Violin players do not only learn to play closed string vibrato and shit, and I don't know why you believe that.

Robotic? What kind of hate do you have? Sure, I play cello, but dynamics are the most important things ever when playing an instrument, especially strings. It's more important than playing the correct tune a lot of times.

It's called a puce because it's usually a piece of a suite, a sonata, a concert etc. It's not the full thing. That's a non argument, you've got your facts wrong.

Music isn't limited, toy just don't like classical music.

Guitar Pro 7 has TAB for violin

As mentioned further up, MuseScore had it too in a pre 2.0 development stage, but it got removed

How do you display the tablature that way in MS?

If you load a string quartet template there is string data attached. You can add a linked staff and change the type to an appropriate 4 string tablature type. From there you can add or delete other instruments, unfortunately 2 violins,1 viola and 1 cello are the max using this method.

How do I know when to play G# on E, vs G# on D? I’ve been playing tab my whole life, and as I’m trying to learn sheet this is my biggest questions I’d live it if i could get some clarity.

Check out https://musescore.org/en/node/69961#comment-900721. I'll work with you.

Hey everyone. I am a fiddle player.... hmm... lets clarify a bit... an experienced beginner and an experienced software developer (just not in C++). I am not going to re-hash the discussions in this thread. I see a need for both options.
What I want to try to do is address the request.

However the question is how and where does it need to be implemented.... I could use some advice from both users on how you think it should work and if any experienced MuseScore developers would be willing to point me in the right direction in the code base, both would be a huge help.
I will start digging around the code to see what I can find.

Here are my thoughts to get this started:
1. This feature should be implemented similar to how the current tablatures work for the plucked instruments but we add this under the Violin as say "Fiddle Finger Position" (vs tablature).

2. On the scale it should list the string number vs TAB

3. The flat and sharp should be indicated with a Finger number and "L" for flat and "H" for sharp. (ie. 2L)

Questions:
A. How should the finger position be indicated? Dots, or dashes above the note? Say nothing for standard home position, and add a dot / dash for each position after that... I have no idea how this would be implemented in code yet... but lets think about it. (@@webternals is that how you note the positions and @@Bruce A Pearce is the bracket 3 under the note notes how the position is indicated in standard notation?)

I know this only scratches the surface. I know there are a million ways to address this.
My request is that if you don't use finger position or haven't used it then please step back and assist when we/I need some help with the correlation / trying to match the standard notation with something.
Fiddlers... deep breath I know it will be impossible to get 100% consensus on everything. I am going to start with Jay Buckey's fiddle tablature (thanks @webternals for posting) as a frame work and and go from there. If you have experience with something that worked lets discuss it. And in the end, if you don't like what is finally implemented, I plan to take a lot of notes so maybe you can duplicate, and create your own system too.

I did find the Fiddle Fingering for musecore that lalov posted here: https://musescore.org/en/project/fiddle-fingering-musescore

I have it working on my MuseScore 3 right now. It is a step in the right direction...

Here we or at least I go...
GreaseM0nk

Came up again in https://musescore.org/de/node/309711
There the attached template helped

And reason not to have string data for violin, viola, cello, bass?

the above template as well as the String Quartet template can serve as a workaround (as they do contain string data), just delete the instruments you don't want and add a linked staff to the ones you want, then change type to one of the 4-string ones

This is a fine work-around, How do I save it as a template?

Just save that score into your templates folder. See https://musescore.org/en/handbook/create-new-score#user-templates-folder

Related to #311175: [EPIC] Engraving issues and suggestions

That could be a good upgrade for MuseScore 4

We could also add the MuseHub Viols, Recorders, Early Instruments, etc for new sounds.

There are actually fretted Violins like the Viper & another good update is to have the Musescore Tablature Note Symbols show every note value from 1024th up to Quadruple Whole (and even Octuple Whole note which is waiting)

As this issue tracker has been discontinued, re-request in GitHub, https://github.com/musescore/MuseScore/issues/new?assignees=&labels=Fea…

As mentioned further up, using the String Quartet template might serve as a workarund (even for Mu4!), as that has string data available for violin, viola, cello and bass