Text will not go underneath volta

• Dec 4, 2018 - 21:37
Reported version
P1 - High
S3 - Major

Add a volta to a measure
Add some text to the measure (staff text, chord symbols etc.)
Try to place it underneath

Expected: it fits underneath

Result: it refuses to go underneath without turning off autoplace
Moving the volta upwards also pushes the text up above it. No matter how much space there is, the text will not go beneath the volta.


Status active by design
Priority P2 - Medium

I suppose it is a notation rule that a text should go above a volta. If you want to make it different, switch off the autoplacement. Or not?

Status by design active

As Marc Sabatella can probably confirm, this is not by design. Jazz sheets have voltas positioned higher, so that chord symbols can fit underneath, but even this doesn't work.

Gould shows text within voltas in her examples. She mentions tempo and rehearsal marks as things that specifically could go either way, but it seems all else goes under.

  • Chord symbols below volta: I find this OK, chord symbols are part of the music (for me) and should not divided from the notes by a line.
  • Fret diagram below voltas: If have seen it done that way, but I'm not a guitar player. For me it looks a little ugly, but for me it is also part of the notes.

Ah, yes, you've got enough guitarists to ask there at UG ;-)

Brings up the question/problem however: chord symbol + fretboard diagram places the symbol atop the diagram IIRC

Looked at some sheet music. It looks, like it is comment practice to put the symbol above the diagram. So the wish of Anatoly can not work :-( May be he discusses again with some guitarists? :-)

What, if we have one chord symbol with fret and than one without? First above and next below? May look funny?

How about: If a system has fret diagram, layout volta before frets (and harmony), if not layout volta after harmony?

Half awake :-). Gould doesn't deal with this, pretty much exclusively "classical".

For jazz, we almost never use fret diagrams, but chord symbols go under voltas in all the major editions.

My gut says it is good for fret diagrams to go above volta just to keep the volta from being too crazy high, but don't have enough experience to say if that is really expected. But I do know that chord symbols do generally go above the fret diagram.

So yes, I do like an approach that says do voltas after chord symbols (and of course tempo, also repeats, probably all text), but save fret diagrams and chord symbols until afterwards if fret diagrams exist on the system. Not crazy about the special-casing this means in the code, but results are what matter.

Thanks for undertaking this!

See also #279885: Make it so Tempo text is automatically placed above all other text. Right now we do tempo text before staff text and chord symbols, it really should be after (Gould says tempo should be "above all other performance instructions", and "well clear of slurs, octave signs, and articulations". As I mentioned elsewhere, she says it can go either way with respect to voltas.

So as long as we're tweaking the order, can tempo be moved after staff text and chord symbols (but still before voltas)?

I'm not sure the current status of this, but FWIW, having separate commits doesn't necessarily mean separate PR's. There can be multiple commits in a single PR. I don't know if that is what was meant, but anyhow, something to be aware of.

What about this sequences:
* ...
* Fermata, Tremolobar
* Jump, Marker
* Harmony if no Fret Diagram in system
* StaffText, InstrumentChange
* TempoText
* Volta
* Fret Diagram
* Harmony if Fret Diagram in system
* RehearsalMark

This makes sense to me. In particular, I agree that tempo text should be last before volta, and I also agree with rehearsal marks after volta. Jumps/markers (repeat text) I don't have strong feelings about nor do I see anything in Gould to suggest which way is best, but I my gut says maybe after staff text and chord symbols but under tempo? Could be useful to browse IMSLP for examples.

I personally like the harmony close to the notes, really nothing in between except articulations. I'll check some scores later and see if I can make better recommendations.

The latest comments would result in:
* ...
* Fermata, Tremolobar
* Harmony if no Fret Diagram in system
* StaffText, InstrumentChange
* Jump, Marker
* TempoText
* Volta
* Fret Diagram
* Harmony if Fret Diagram in system
* RehearsalMark

From orchestral scores: no one changes tempo at a Volta. Rehearsal marks go beside, and on the same level as tempo text. Tempo text is the one that moves horizontally, rehearsal mark is always over the barlines.

If by jumps and markers you're talking about D.C. Al segna and similar, it's under tempo and Volta. Maybe above staff text.

For pthvogt, who asked in linked issue.

Edit: where do ottava lines currently go? Should be below tempo and Volta, above everything else. For the 8va anyway. 8ba should go above pedal... I think, but I'm not much of a pianist, and that's where you usually have 8ba.

Current sequence:
* ottava
* pedal
* other spanners (no slurs, no voltas) [this is, what you find in the "lines" pallete]
* Fermata, Tremolobar
* ...

Looks wrong!

There should be canonical groups of notation symbols which are covered by overall theory. I believe Gould gives the basics in the book, doesn't she?

She does to some extent, and I've listed the specific advice I was able to find. But I don't see a single table listing everything in order. Just, within the description of tempo (say), a partial list of things it should appear above or below. So you can kind of piece an order together but there might still be things unspecified, and that seems to be the case for repeats. Complicating the issue is the fact that things like DS al Coda often go under the staff for solo instruments or for parts, while being above for the score.

For example for ottavas Gould gets complicated. If there is a tuplet longer than the ottave, then the ottava must be under the tuplet line, and vice versa. This means, there is no definite sequence.

This means: whatever we do, it will be wrong for some cases. So, let's do what we find the best for us :-)

First of all, this is not rocket science :-) We should try to enhance the layout in this issue, but leave room for improvements for later versions. We are already in the beta phase...

This means, I will not introduce something like "tempo text moved to the right by a rehearsal mark".

The most common rule for voltas in Gould (if we skip special case) is "outside all other notation". If we put all the other comments above together, here my next proposal:

  • ...
  • Tuplet
  • Slur
  • Dynamic
  • Spanner w/o slur, ottava, pedal, volta
  • Fermata, Tremolobar
  • Ottava
  • Pedal
  • Lyric
  • Harmony if no Fret Diagram in system
  • StaffText, InstrumentChange
  • Jump, Marker
  • TempoText
  • Volta
  • Fret Diagram
  • Harmony if Fret Diagram in system
  • RehearsalMark

I will prepare a PR for this.

You're right that isn't rocket science, but still, it's tricky to work through the different combinations and variations out there. I went through your list here against Gould, looking up each symbol one by one to check the advice given. There are some ambiguities as mentioned, but when I also considered what my personal experience, as well as some practical common sense, tells me, I do think this is the best fixed order we can come up with.

Thanks again for tackling this and being so thorough about it! I think it will go a long way toward reducing the need to disable autoplace.

Status PR created fixed

Fixed in branch master, commit ee304544cf

Complete reordering of the layout sequence.

This includes:
fix #279391 Staff text, chord symbols etc will fit under the volta. If we have fret diagrams, the chord symbols will be above the fret diagrams and the volta.
fix #279885: Tempo Text will be above all other text.