Text will not go underneath volta
Reported version
3.0
Priority
P1 - High
Type
Functional
Frequency
Once
Severity
S3 - Major
Reproducibility
Always
Status
closed
Regression
Yes
Workaround
Yes
Project
Reproduce:
Add a volta to a measure
Add some text to the measure (staff text, chord symbols etc.)
Try to place it underneath
Expected: it fits underneath
Result: it refuses to go underneath without turning off autoplace
Moving the volta upwards also pushes the text up above it. No matter how much space there is, the text will not go beneath the volta.
Comments
I suppose it is a notation rule that a text should go above a volta. If you want to make it different, switch off the autoplacement. Or not?
As Marc Sabatella can probably confirm, this is not by design. Jazz sheets have voltas positioned higher, so that chord symbols can fit underneath, but even this doesn't work.
Gould shows text within voltas in her examples. She mentions tempo and rehearsal marks as things that specifically could go either way, but it seems all else goes under.
Chord symbols under volta?
Chord aymbs for sure, but Gould also shows Fine there. Worth doing more research to get it right. For now, disabling autoplace will do.
See also #278153: Continuous View: Volta changes Tempo of Playback. I'm wondering if simply moving volta layout later wold solve that issue too...
https://github.com/musescore/MuseScore/pull/4342
This moves the layout of voltas behind:
* TempoText, Fermata, TremoloBar
* Jump, Marker
* FretDiagram
* StaffText, Harmony, InstrumentChange
This means, all these elements are now underneath the volta...
If this is not OK, we have to make a new PR.
fret diagram below volta?
Even Chord symbols (harmony) are debatable IMHO,
In reply to Chord symbols below volta: I… by pthvogt
I discussed the topic with guitarists. Chord symbols as a part of music (playback) notation should go below Volta. Fretboard diagrams should go above because it doesn't influence on how we interpret the notation, it only helps to play specified chord symbol.
Ah, yes, you've got enough guitarists to ask there at UG ;-)
Brings up the question/problem however: chord symbol + fretboard diagram places the symbol atop the diagram IIRC
In reply to Ah, yes, you've got enough… by Jojo-Schmitz
Yes, above (in my PR comment) you see the sequence it is done (at least in page mode).
Looked at some sheet music. It looks, like it is comment practice to put the symbol above the diagram. So the wish of Anatoly can not work :-( May be he discusses again with some guitarists? :-)
that was what suspected. Might need special casing then? Chord Symbols above if there also is a Fretboard Diagram, below if not?
What, if we have one chord symbol with fret and than one without? First above and next below? May look funny?
How about: If a system has fret diagram, layout volta before frets (and harmony), if not layout volta after harmony?
I'm for it. What do the guitarists at UG say?
We should also wait for Marc to wake up and give his advice (and to look up what Elaine Gould wrote). :-)
Half awake :-). Gould doesn't deal with this, pretty much exclusively "classical".
For jazz, we almost never use fret diagrams, but chord symbols go under voltas in all the major editions.
My gut says it is good for fret diagrams to go above volta just to keep the volta from being too crazy high, but don't have enough experience to say if that is really expected. But I do know that chord symbols do generally go above the fret diagram.
So yes, I do like an approach that says do voltas after chord symbols (and of course tempo, also repeats, probably all text), but save fret diagrams and chord symbols until afterwards if fret diagrams exist on the system. Not crazy about the special-casing this means in the code, but results are what matter.
Thanks for undertaking this!
I will change my PR. If Anatoly's guitarists agree, he can commit it.
PR changed.
PR changed: PR now fixes only issue #278153: Continuous View: Volta changes Tempo of Playback. This was done due to a comment of Anatoly, who wants different commits for these two problems.
New PR for this issue will follow, after it has been decided, what to do (Anatoly was not happy with the PR.)
See also #279885: Make it so Tempo text is automatically placed above all other text. Right now we do tempo text before staff text and chord symbols, it really should be after (Gould says tempo should be "above all other performance instructions", and "well clear of slurs, octave signs, and articulations". As I mentioned elsewhere, she says it can go either way with respect to voltas.
So as long as we're tweaking the order, can tempo be moved after staff text and chord symbols (but still before voltas)?
I'm not sure the current status of this, but FWIW, having separate commits doesn't necessarily mean separate PR's. There can be multiple commits in a single PR. I don't know if that is what was meant, but anyhow, something to be aware of.
As #278153: Continuous View: Volta changes Tempo of Playback has prio P0, we will put this in a new PR. I have prepared a PR with the Fret Diagram "trick" which also addresses the skylines problem discussed in https://github.com/musescore/MuseScore/pull/4342.
I will look, if I can move the tempo text in the layout and put this also in the PR.
What about this sequences:
* ...
* Fermata, Tremolobar
* Jump, Marker
* Harmony if no Fret Diagram in system
* StaffText, InstrumentChange
* TempoText
* Volta
* Fret Diagram
* Harmony if Fret Diagram in system
* RehearsalMark
This makes sense to me. In particular, I agree that tempo text should be last before volta, and I also agree with rehearsal marks after volta. Jumps/markers (repeat text) I don't have strong feelings about nor do I see anything in Gould to suggest which way is best, but I my gut says maybe after staff text and chord symbols but under tempo? Could be useful to browse IMSLP for examples.
I am not sure, where to put the harmony. As near as possible to the notes? Or even above the jumps and markers?
I personally like the harmony close to the notes, really nothing in between except articulations. I'll check some scores later and see if I can make better recommendations.
The latest comments would result in:
* ...
* Fermata, Tremolobar
* Harmony if no Fret Diagram in system
* StaffText, InstrumentChange
* Jump, Marker
* TempoText
* Volta
* Fret Diagram
* Harmony if Fret Diagram in system
* RehearsalMark
From orchestral scores: no one changes tempo at a Volta. Rehearsal marks go beside, and on the same level as tempo text. Tempo text is the one that moves horizontally, rehearsal mark is always over the barlines.
If by jumps and markers you're talking about D.C. Al segna and similar, it's under tempo and Volta. Maybe above staff text.
For pthvogt, who asked in linked issue.
Edit: where do ottava lines currently go? Should be below tempo and Volta, above everything else. For the 8va anyway. 8ba should go above pedal... I think, but I'm not much of a pianist, and that's where you usually have 8ba.
This means, tempo text moved to the right by a rehearsal mark. Not sure, how to make this :-)
Current sequence:
* ottava
* pedal
* other spanners (no slurs, no voltas) [this is, what you find in the "lines" pallete]
* Fermata, Tremolobar
* ...
Looks wrong!
@Laurelin: 8va above Harmony, StaffText, InstrumentChange, Jump, Marker? Really? Would be difficult to read...
PS: for a definition of Jump and Marker see: https://musescore.org/en/handbook/repeats-and-jumps
There should be canonical groups of notation symbols which are covered by overall theory. I believe Gould gives the basics in the book, doesn't she?
As you can see from the comments of Marc, Gould does not cover everything... But we wait for Marc and his opinion.
She does to some extent, and I've listed the specific advice I was able to find. But I don't see a single table listing everything in order. Just, within the description of tempo (say), a partial list of things it should appear above or below. So you can kind of piece an order together but there might still be things unspecified, and that seems to be the case for repeats. Complicating the issue is the fact that things like DS al Coda often go under the staff for solo instruments or for parts, while being above for the score.
For example for ottavas Gould gets complicated. If there is a tuplet longer than the ottave, then the ottava must be under the tuplet line, and vice versa. This means, there is no definite sequence.
This means: whatever we do, it will be wrong for some cases. So, let's do what we find the best for us :-)
First of all, this is not rocket science :-) We should try to enhance the layout in this issue, but leave room for improvements for later versions. We are already in the beta phase...
This means, I will not introduce something like "tempo text moved to the right by a rehearsal mark".
The most common rule for voltas in Gould (if we skip special case) is "outside all other notation". If we put all the other comments above together, here my next proposal:
I will prepare a PR for this.
You're right that isn't rocket science, but still, it's tricky to work through the different combinations and variations out there. I went through your list here against Gould, looking up each symbol one by one to check the advice given. There are some ambiguities as mentioned, but when I also considered what my personal experience, as well as some practical common sense, tells me, I do think this is the best fixed order we can come up with.
Thanks again for tackling this and being so thorough about it! I think it will go a long way toward reducing the need to disable autoplace.
PR created: https://github.com/musescore/MuseScore/pull/4386
We see wrong placements of chord symbols before and after the PR. Put in new issue #279950: Chord symbol autoplace doesn't work for beamed notes.
Fixed in branch master, commit ee304544cf
Complete reordering of the layout sequence.
This includes:
fix #279391 Staff text, chord symbols etc will fit under the volta. If we have fret diagrams, the chord symbols will be above the fret diagrams and the volta.
fix #279885: Tempo Text will be above all other text.
Automatically closed -- issue fixed for 2 weeks with no activity.
In reply to that was what suspected… by Jojo-Schmitz
I am very disappointed that you chose this solution...
Separating the Chord Symbol from the Fretboard Diagram makes it almost impossible to read. This does not fit in my mind. Just place it all underneath if the end-user wants it to, and be done with it! There is lots of popular music out there written like this.
I personally think it is very ugly to have the Chord Symbol and the Fretboard Diagram (to me they are like twins) separated by a line and would prefer a higher Volta...
I guess its all about taste, so why not have it optional...